[22:04:46] So, to start with, thanks everyone for coming to this meeting on somewhat short notice. I'll be sure to schedule something ahead of time. [22:05:05] K [22:05:18] The first thing on our agenda today came up a bit before the meeting. Apples had a talk with me and is announcing his retirement from staff. [22:05:40] So I'd like to first thank Apples for his time he's dedicated to Bay as a member of our staff. [22:05:56] Awww [22:06:16] i'm freee [22:06:17] B-but, who's going to be our scarecrow now ;~; [22:06:20] *** Quits: Raptor1628 (Raptor1628@sorcery-i2iat6.md.comcast.net) (Quit: SorceryNet Kiwi WebChat) [22:06:33] Oh no we lost raptor too [22:06:35] Who we will blame for things [22:06:44] raptor couldnt handle the news [22:06:48] Apple gone, Bay staff crumbles [22:06:54] Apfel bb noe :< [22:07:15] Anyhoo, have fun whatever nerdy things you plan on doing, Apples ! [22:07:20] Who's taking over for Raptor then? ;_; (calls not it) [22:07:20] fuck all [22:07:24] Thanks for the years, Apple_Master, and join our Paranoia campaign [22:07:31] bai apples~ [22:07:34] does this mean [22:07:36] He can't make the time, unfortunately :( [22:07:36] its at like 12 in the evening u nerd [22:07:43] there will be a new master of apples [22:07:43] Thanks for all you've done, Apple_Master [22:08:00] <3 Apples [22:08:07] See you, Apple [22:08:15] fare thee well [22:08:17] regardless, bye, Apple_Master [22:08:20] Didn't know ye [22:08:20] Will you be sticking around on IRC still? [22:08:26] But I know ye was good [22:08:28] Apples will be staying as our resident IRC op on #bs12 but we'll be holding an interim nomination and election for the senior administrator position. [22:08:30] i have to i'm an irc admin yo [22:08:33] hah [22:08:51] At least it's but a full goodbye then [22:09:00] i'll still be around i just figure i might as well stop pretending i actually play the game and am remotely involved [22:09:05] I'll be posting the full thing after this meeting. [22:09:07] heh [22:09:09] you can leave but you can never checkout [22:09:13] neverrr [22:09:27] *** Joins: Cyberkitteh_Lonefly (uid90889@sorcery-46t1f7.ealing.irccloud.com) [22:09:41] you are laaaate [22:09:41] So again, thanks for your time here as a member of Baystation's staff, Apples. [22:09:59] you're welcome good luck cleaning the mess [22:10:01] * Apple_Master sets rugs on fire [22:10:04] Maybe with all that free time of yours you'll be able to GM a few games or something :o [22:10:22] There is a second time we're looking for a GM Apples. I'll talk to you about it after this meeting. [22:11:09] Does anyone know if Raptor will be back? [22:11:26] Not sure [22:11:32] I don't know [22:11:39] We sort of need him for one of our topics. [22:11:48] I think he had a thing tonight, just like ToG [22:11:55] Until then, we'll move on to the next thing. [22:12:01] Ooooh, is he getting canned? [22:12:05] * Daaneesh kidding [22:12:06] XD [22:12:15] Documenting mod and admin tools! [22:12:42] *** Joins: Raptor1628 (Raptor1628@sorcery-i2iat6.md.comcast.net) [22:12:42] So, one of the goals that we set at the beginning of this term was that we'd create a documentation for all the tools available for admins and mods. [22:12:46] Oh perfect timing [22:12:47] he back [22:12:52] my fucking internet [22:12:59] Rope tore? [22:13:01] I was waiting for someone to talk for like 10 minutes [22:13:02] Better? [22:13:10] I missed everything after tellin apples he's a lucky bastard [22:13:28] We on admin/mod buttons documentation. [22:13:29] Raptor1628: [16:12:17] <@Snapshot> Documenting mod and admin tools! [22:13:29] [16:12:44] <@Snapshot> So, one of the goals that we set at the beginning of this term was that we'd create a documentation for all the tools available for admins and mods. [22:13:33] We were just moving onto the next topic [22:14:04] So, essentially, what I'd like to do is create some sort of organize listing of all the buttons, what ranks can use them, and what they do. [22:14:25] That would be handy [22:14:30] It sounds fairly simple until you realize there's over something like 200 different buttons that admins can press. [22:15:00] So, I'll be looking for people who can help do the documentation of the staff tools. [22:15:14] Let's be honest, most of them consist in blowing the station up in various ways [22:15:16] Shouldn't be too hard, most of em are straight forward. [22:15:32] Yeah, it's just figuring out which ranks have access and how we want to organize it [22:15:56] I figured it'd be best to either do it as a specific section like a subforum under general staff, or put it as a wiki thing. [22:16:03] A good reference on our tools would be super useful, especially for newer staff. [22:16:09] It would also be nice to perhaps plan how to remove some, and better categorise the others. [22:16:10] Speaking of, 'play-server-sound' is available to me as an admin, but when i press it it does nothing. [22:16:18] first step [22:16:20] I think it requires a right admins dont have or something. [22:16:21] make sure all the buttons work [22:16:27] because log buttons still don't work [22:16:27] Wiki would be easier, with people being able to modify a same doc rather than posting the ones you know on a thread and hoping for the OP to edit their message [22:16:30] after however many months [22:17:16] Alright. I was figuring wiki would work for us as well. [22:17:23] Our code is open, so putting docs up on the public wiki would be fine [22:17:33] I'll try and lay out the preliminary stuff on the wiki after the meeting as well. [22:17:38] But, yeah, let's be organized : Making a list of all buttons > Finding the ones that don't work > Finding what the ones that work are supposed to do > All the complicated stuff like permissions and shit [22:17:47] Would anyone be interested in helping conduct the documentation? [22:18:06] I am available most of the time, so I could help with the moderator buttons. [22:18:09] I can help I honk [22:18:11] Think* [22:18:23] daaneesh is a clown [22:18:27] >.> [22:18:32] Yeah, I'd be up for the moderators buttons, but I think that might only be a very small part of all the buttons u.u [22:18:33] My phone is dumb [22:18:35] However, I may have to duck out later on, as more things come up. I'm currently doing some robotics stuff, and it's going to be picking up in a month or two [22:18:44] in terms of admin tool documentation [22:18:55] Jackal would this robotics thing happen to be FRC or FTC? [22:18:57] I can do Trialmin buttons :-3 [22:19:06] FRC and Vex [22:19:07] psi did mention modularisation of admin tools was on his list; if it was modularised, it'd be *far* easier to have documented [22:19:26] cool. I was on FRC2910 [22:19:39] 1138, but we can talk about that more later [22:19:47] Also modularization would be a fun and daunting task. [22:19:51] yeah [22:19:59] it's a todo list for a reason :P [22:20:02] Especially since we probably don't want everything in tabs but as ordered menus. [22:20:09] hm? [22:20:11] Oh, that'd be awesome [22:20:12] Eh, if Psi wants to do it, who are we to stop them ? :p [22:20:17] Because tab bloat would be terrible. [22:20:30] We already have a bazillion tabs for admins [22:20:34] You haven't seen my Hardsuit Interface tab [22:20:35] yeh it'd be same tabs as current [22:20:42] it'd just be datum-per-verb or w/e [22:20:52] I can probably stuff all admin tools into the same tab but categorized, if that's what people what [22:20:54] Maybe move stuff to new browser windows [22:20:54] and topic split up into separate datums or w/e too [22:21:05] rather than one monolithic Topic() and a big list of verbs [22:21:09] I could also make it pretty much look like the Secrets window [22:21:10] yeah [22:21:20] We also definitely need certain buttons behind confirmations [22:21:30] I've accidentally rebuilt the nanoUI map like 3 times now. [22:21:41] mm [22:21:52] *** Joins: togphone (AndChat4556@sorcery-2q9kkl.8tvg.o13m.100c.2600.IP) [22:22:10] Sorry I'm late [22:22:32] np tog [22:22:35] you missed apples retiring. [22:22:39] oh Snapshot for future reference; any channel i'm in is being logged 24/7, if you ever need logs, just poke me [22:22:43] Oh my [22:22:45] kk [22:23:11] Hey TOG [22:23:21] So, Daaneesh, Jackal, and Paradox I'll steal you three and we'll make a little forum PM list for the documentation project. [22:23:29] Sounds good [22:23:43] Okay [22:23:51] Why steal us, though, can't you just, y'know, borrow us or something ;~; [22:24:00] Hola Chrono. Did I miss discussion of the documentation project [22:24:50] Just missed it [22:24:50] we're doing it on the wiki and we're looking for people who are going to help document stuff. [22:25:02] yes, gimme a sec and i'll copy my logs over to web dir and you can read back, togphone [22:25:10] We decided we need to go through and test all our buttons first to make sure they're working so we can indicate if they are or not. [22:25:19] And no, we're not doing a lore-wiki that works through Github, ToG e.é [22:25:26] 1qaa [22:25:29] Oops [22:25:38] shots fired [22:25:52] Ah alright, cool. And I know, no need (even if markdown is better..) [22:25:54] I dropped my phone [22:26:12] togphone, https://gn32.uk/f/meeting-2016-08-13.txt [22:26:15] So [22:26:21] up to current [22:26:23] next thing (going back one) on our list is the Torch Checkup [22:26:25] Thank you ill pull it up in a moment. [22:26:25] RAPTOR [22:26:28] all you mate~ [22:26:42] torchhype [22:27:06] Status of the Torch: http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/120/409/03e.png [22:27:33] Status of the Torch: http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/10/1017ccc0dadc252b304b6f684e3b60722a29eed44681d4ad19f4018f8e1e0457.jpg [22:27:34] Torch Life 3? [22:27:36] convenient time to be back. Any progress on fixing the map corruption? It's taking literally months now. [22:27:44] fuckin' memes [22:28:02] Alright, my latest PR getting things ready for items is up [22:28:12] I probably need help getting it to lsoe its merge conflicts [22:28:25] whats the conflicts due to [22:28:25] *** Joins: ThatOneGuy (ThatOneGuy@sorcery-bav.qdh.57.173.IP) [22:28:34] probably zuh's turbolift thing [22:28:38] I can fix it [22:28:39] prolly [22:28:48] I just always delete my branch and make a new PR [22:28:51] and that takes forever [22:28:53] ANYWAY [22:28:59] once this latest PR is through in one way or another [22:29:14] I'm just waiting on haswell's rank PR and I can start the final task of getting jobs set [22:29:23] loadouts, uniforms, spawns, access, all that stuff [22:29:25] atlantis, java is hopeless for torch-10, have to use python [22:29:37] once that's done, and zuh's work on the transfer/emergency controller is done [22:29:39] However, the Java version is the only one that can handle merge conflicts [22:29:41] we'll be good to go for testing [22:29:47] other than the aforementioned issue with mapmerge [22:29:52] which...is anyone working on that? [22:29:58] And no one has figured out why the java is breaking [22:30:08] Might be too many maps? [22:30:13] so tl;dr once my PR, Zuh's two PRs, and Haswell's PRs are merged, I can start the last thing [22:30:31] The last thing??? [22:30:38] setting up jobs [22:30:43] Haswell, and if python mapmerge isn't working for me? The corrupted maps should /not/ be in the repo in first place [22:30:46] And then we'll be good to go??? [22:30:48] loadouts, lockers, and access mostly [22:30:54] yeah, we'll need a ton of playtesting [22:30:55] but yeah [22:31:03] Wow we might just get it done for September [22:31:04] Weew [22:31:24] The python map merger structures the maps different though, righ [22:31:49] Nice [22:31:50] This topic was discussed in previous meeting too, and i remember someone promising they will use some kind of linux map fixer script. [22:32:02] Either way, the corrupted Z levels have to be removed (at least temporarily), or fixed. [22:32:13] Wait the maps are actually corrupted? [22:32:26] They seem to be, causing mapmerge crashes. [22:32:30] The Python script handle the problematic fines just fine [22:32:41] Do we know why they're problematic? :( [22:32:44] Yet, not everyone can use the python script. [22:32:45] No [22:32:56] Which ones were they again? 4 and 10? [22:32:59] 7, 10 [22:33:02] atlantis, how are they corrupted? [22:33:07] they seem to have no problems [22:33:10] what about fastdmm? https://github.com/monster860/FastDMM [22:33:10] Haswell: GitHub - monster860/FastDMM: An alternative, more flexible BYOND map editor. [22:33:11] and if they aren't mapmerged [22:33:12] the issue isn't the maps [22:33:12] they run fine [22:33:18] the issue is that mapmerge breaks on them [22:33:24] Haswell: Doesn't solve the map merge issues [22:33:36] PsiOmegaDelta, iirc it does [22:33:37] They are corrupted in some way that breaks mapmerge [22:33:38] so can we just not runmapmerge on those two? [22:33:57] PsiOmegaDelta, fastdmm tries to save maps with a minimal diff ie basically inbuilt mapmerge [22:33:57] the problem is if you don't map merge you overwrite any changes on those maps. [22:34:19] GinjaNinja32: Can it be used to handle branch merge conflicts? [22:34:22] Off-topic but if everything is done in a timely manner with Bogani they should be up for a Torch-PR by September as well just so peeps know. [22:34:38] it'd still be a problem if you edited the same lines, but if it's just changing the maps it should be fine [22:36:11] what are 7 and 10? they're the centcom and asteroid maps, right? [22:36:15] *** Joins: mkalash (mkalash@mustafa.kalash) [22:36:18] yes [22:36:41] We may have to try rebuilding those two, I don't know [22:36:46] I wish we just knew why mapmerge fails. [22:36:59] 7 wouldn't be too hard to redot [22:37:01] Cut them out and then force commit new instances of them over it. [22:37:43] yeah but completely redoing z-10 from scratch would be a bitch [22:37:54] Just force a merge and see if that fixes it? [22:37:57] especially considering it's fairy different from exodus Z-2 [22:37:57] Like w/o map merge? [22:38:07] It doesn't have to be from scratch if we just force a new instance of it up. [22:38:42] in any case, could we wait until my PR's through before screwing with it? I can try to fix it up later tonight [22:38:56] i have an idea what might be causing it, but i'm not sure [22:39:16] i have a link to a copy of the java mapmerge's source somewhere to look at, just need to get around to it [22:39:32] Does it throw any exceptions or errors? [22:39:36] my suspicion is that the java mapmerge can't handle one map going from aaa to aWF and the other going from aa to WF [22:39:39] It just stops and chews CPU [22:39:54] since torch-10 has 3-character IDs despite not using one of them [22:40:16] and torch-7 has 2-character IDs but only uses one of them [22:40:30] Not using one of what? [22:40:41] the characters [22:40:45] torch-10 goes aaa to aWF [22:40:50] alright. [22:40:51] torch-7 goes aa to aY [22:41:11] I could look into making some script to re-organize that if the Java thing doesn't get looked into [22:41:13] i suspect if they went aa to WF and a to Y they might work [22:41:20] mm [22:41:23] Could be. [22:41:36] and how could that be fixed? [22:41:38] So it hangs on 7 then? [22:41:41] Like, when merging? [22:41:58] 7 and 10. Yes. It hangs and peaks at full CPU use for one core [22:42:27] Might also be some weird syntax in there bugging it out [22:42:37] I might have to pull this meeting in because we're probably losing a bunch of people right now. [22:42:44] *** Quits: Paradoxon (Paradoxon@sorcery-gj1a5a.fbx.proxad.net) (Quit: SorceryNet Kiwi WebChat) [22:42:47] *** Joins: AndChat|133161 (AndChat1331@sorcery-rvn.dce.114.24.IP) [22:42:54] Raptor when do you think we'll have a playtest ready? [22:42:55] Raptor1628, it'd basically be remove the extra identifier and boom, if that's what's causing it [22:43:10] but yeah, meeting, this can be discussed in #codershuttle afterwards if people want [22:43:39] * AndChat|133161 is Daan [22:43:57] I couldn't tell you snap, depends on how long the job setup takes [22:44:05] if I was an optimist I'd say by the end of august [22:44:07] but I'm not [22:44:14] so I'll say by the end of september [22:44:14] *** Joins: Paradoxon (Paradoxon@sorcery-gj1a5a.fbx.proxad.net) [22:44:23] Raptor infected me with his crappy internet, halp [22:44:42] *** Quits: Daaneesh (AndChat1331@sorcery-s9c379.su.shawcable.net) (NickServ (GHOST command used by AndChat|133161)) [22:44:42] *** AndChat|133161 is now known as Daaneesh [22:44:45] Alright [22:44:56] Anything else to talk about in regards to torch? [22:45:05] Missed the last three minutes of discussion, I assume it was just techno-babble about the maps ? [22:45:11] p.much [22:45:13] other than begging folks to check the more code-related bugs I can't fix with mapping, no [22:45:15] * Paradoxon nods. [22:45:28] estimation is end of September for first torch playtest. [22:45:42] Would be pretty fantastic if we get a playtest before then [22:45:55] So, with nothing else to say about torch, the next topic is a checkup on IA. [22:46:13] interstellar assembly, right? [22:46:17] yep [22:46:28] I'll be straight up with this, the big reason this is taking so long is because I'm sitting here trying to teach myself javascript and node so I can make the website for IA. [22:47:30] So, if anyone else might be interested in helping design and make the website that'd be great ;) [22:47:53] I wish I could. Would make me more useful xD [22:47:58] hmmmmm...what features do you want? [22:48:13] As much as I would, I'm not much of a design person per say [22:48:21] I should really try to learn how to code and design web shit so I can be more helpful around here. [22:48:41] *** Quits: togphone (AndChat4556@sorcery-2q9kkl.8tvg.o13m.100c.2600.IP) (Quit: Bye) [22:48:51] bye togphone [22:48:53] That being said, if no one else is available, I could teach myself in my free time to help out [22:49:31] Basically, what we need is for it to be able to tie into the forum for login, and allow for the creation of proposals, voting on proposals once the administrator enables voting for one, review of any proposal, and listings of voting members in both houses. [22:49:36] It's a fun and complex systems. [22:49:42] Alright cool [22:49:57] * Paradoxon raises a hand. [22:50:02] Also all this stuff gets saved on a mysql server so we can access read only versions in game [22:50:09] Is it me or is the Assembly becoming... Way too big a thing ? [22:50:20] This was part of the original plan for assembly. [22:50:24] does it /need/ to be a website? [22:50:29] Uh. [22:50:29] ^ [22:50:34] I think we could just make it a subforum [22:50:44] it'd be nice if it could be accessed in game [22:50:44] i did a 'shipping manifest' thing for polaris then bay a while ago, just in DM [22:50:49] 'Cause, yeah, it's starting to feel like its own entity, independent of Baystation [22:51:03] solves the login issue too, just use DM's [22:51:07] but setting up a whole tie-in website might be biting off more than you can chew, if it'll be easy, so be it, but think small, build big [22:51:30] Explain Ginja? [22:51:58] db is just /database aka sqlite [22:51:59] Snapshot, ? [22:52:19] Really what I want is something that can be accessed both in game and out of game. [22:52:24] rather than have a website, have a DM world with verbs etc; it can use BYOND for login, /database for db stuff [22:52:44] /database is just sqlite underneath, so it's accessible from outside DM too [22:52:44] I also really didn't want to drag people out of server onto another server. [22:52:53] and a website doesn't count? [22:52:58] I don't see that biting more time than a website [22:52:59] you can be on multiple BYOND worlds at once :P [22:53:23] less time* [22:53:38] * Daaneesh brb like five minutes [22:53:39] you mean people will have to use BYOND for things other than the game? [22:53:55] In hindsight, we can probably get IA started on the forums, and then migrate it over onto a subdomain website once we actually have something. [22:53:56] :O [22:54:02] I'm... not sure I like that, because BYOND is utter ass [22:54:03] Yeah, I say get the ball rolling [22:54:21] The other thing is that IA really doesn't need to get massively started until Torch pops up. [22:54:31] So I've been lazy in that regard :V [22:55:23] I've got two unathi members, I think all the humans are filled, I think there's a cat and a squid, maybe a few others [22:55:24] I'll start setting up IA stuff on the forums after the meeting so we can at least get the ball rolling in regards to things being set up. [22:55:37] ...can we just make it a forum plugin? Doesn't our forum support fancy stuff like that? [22:55:39] We don't necessarily need all the slots filled to start. [22:55:45] that way it's right on our forums where every one already is [22:55:54] Good luck finding a forum plugin that does exactly what we need [22:56:02] it'd be easier to just set up subforums and all that. [22:56:16] I mean make one [22:56:28] that way the dev is focused on making the features rather than making a whole site [22:56:43] and it's also implemented straight into our existing site [22:57:48] Again, I think the big priority right now is just to get the ball rolling. [22:57:57] Agreed [22:58:05] yes [22:58:10] We can actually get elections going right at the end of this meeting if we move to subforums for the time being. [22:58:39] So, any other IA related questions or are we in agreement to just set up subforums for now? [22:58:50] I'm fine with subforums [22:58:57] I'm good with subforums [22:59:12] ^ [22:59:26] Alrighty then [22:59:29] Next topic [22:59:31] this is a fun one [22:59:39] Resomi checkup and whitelist discussion! [22:59:55] * Haswell groans [23:00:05] ping Aticius [23:00:17] groan [23:00:28] * Paradoxon groarbles [23:00:31] So [23:00:32] first off [23:00:33] * ThatOneGuy kill me [23:00:34] Resomi [23:00:37] what's working? What isn't? [23:00:51] At the moment, the idea of where culture is going is working. [23:01:02] atleast in my little development circle [23:01:28] clique behavior is working/not working, depending on how you see it [23:02:00] The racism events I've helped together have been...interesting [23:03:22] So... do we see any major issue with how they're being played? [23:03:23] what is your little development circle? tell me the private skype chats aren't still going [23:03:30] I think my first lobby for the IA would be "Prevent Resomi playing security officers" [23:03:53] or any other security role except maybe detective... [23:03:57] It's just a group of people i've had toss me ideas so i made a chat to streamline the process of me tossing ideas/getting feedback [23:03:58] especially ERT/AP [23:04:02] * Daaneesh back [23:04:06] Although [23:04:15] if we want resomi to move away from the cutebird mentality [23:04:20] ^ [23:04:23] a violent role may help [23:04:32] This is an ulterior reason why I allowed Resomi Security. [23:04:43] Honest to god question: just how often is the resomi "drawback" of less health and welder vision actually a drawback? [23:04:53] They're predators. Inherently Violent. [23:04:56] Just this last round we had "wow a resomi putting handcuffs on a standing tajaran??? wow" deadchat [23:04:57] Haswell. [23:05:03] Did I miss anything important? [23:05:04] It's -really- bad. [23:05:19] explain [23:05:22] Asan, they could've just yanked the Taj down a bit, cuffed. [23:05:32] Welder Vision gives them 5 tiles of sight [23:05:42] 50 health + 35% more damage [23:05:42] Not sure if this is a RP/Lore thing with predators, but I've had a handful of rounds where I've seen medical assaulted for trying to treat Resomi, which is kind of shitty [23:05:44] makes them literally [23:05:48] fall into hardcrit [23:05:50] from one laser carbine [23:06:24] Not hoping on the drawback topic, as I think Resomii are kinda balanced on that regard, but, yeah, Security Resomi... I really don't see it. [23:06:50] Well there was the one round where the Mercs were Sirisai Headhunters and everyone on security besides the Detective (who was Resomi) was okay with just...giving the Resomi up. [23:06:58] Aticius: You also have NanoTrasen, by some descriptions a racist human company, putting a fragile alien race in their enforcement lines which are undeniably inferior in enforcing corporate regulation as opposed to a human security officer [23:07:02] I just don't see it [23:07:13] We're in the realm of good feelings with this [23:07:16] Let's be thorough [23:07:25] Fragile, almost blind so can't use a gun very efficiently [23:07:26] AND [23:07:34] all I've seen so far with resomi are superspeed kawaii uguu that promote clique behavior. And thermal vision. Not a lot of lore behind them, definitely no drawbacks during play that doesn't involve violence. [23:07:44] Asanadas, Not all of Security is about arresting. In truth, Officers should disarm situations- And it doesn't require something special to fire a Taser or whatever. [23:07:54] With a very enhanced and also fragile hearing, who can cause Resomi to suffer when someone /yells/, so let's not even talk about when gunfire happens [23:07:56] >not alot of lore behind them [23:08:00] It doesn't require someone special to fire a taser? That someone special is blind? [23:08:21] ...Noted. [23:09:05] In truth, Welder Vision was put in to justify thermals. [23:09:20] Which, after using it/whatever, is just trash. [23:09:24] I mean, gunfire on a spaceship is probably already awful, I mean, gunfire in a sealed can ? For Resomi, it's probably hell. Like, seriously, the kind of hell that can make you deaf [23:09:28] I have no objecting to removing both together [23:10:00] Psi, if you could kindly just slap one of the oxyloss overlays on [23:10:02] that'd be nice [23:10:13] combine that with your hearing change and then hey look [23:10:23] They're not laughably blind [23:10:34] I'm not turning this into the 'hate resomi' section of the meeting; but we either need to take common sense steps to the in-game galaxy reacting to the resomi's negatives -- or remove those negatives from the resomi (the worse choice IMO) [23:11:10] In that vein, "No resomi security officers" is a good first step and perhaps the only step really necessary right now on a player level. [23:11:38] That does bring up another thing in regards to the second part of the resomi discussion [23:12:19] That being that since there have been major changes to Resomi lore and it seems like the playerbase isn't particularly following those changes, that we do a blanket wipe of the resomi whitelist and have them reapply with the new lore. [23:13:14] I personally think it's too early to take a decision about that [23:13:21] First, we need a stable lore about them [23:13:41] I wouldn't wish that headache on anybody honestly. All the resomi players reapplying??? [23:13:44] I mean, I've lost count on how many times the lore was modified in the past few monthes [23:14:13] AFAIK there hasn't been any big changes since the big rewrite. [23:15:09] If anything would be done about people not playing their race write, they should just be talked to. So they, and in turn we, know that they understand the changes and what is going on. [23:15:34] right* I'm not on the ball in the typing department today. [23:16:34] Well, if we're not in favor of the wipe, that's alright. After all, the only precedent so far was the Tajaran rewrite a few years ago. [23:16:37] I wouldn't say a revamp of the whitelist is necessary. It'll be more tedious, but it's a better option if you just check with all those who have the whitelist, and make sure that they read the lore, and if they don't and do not play the species properly to the new lore, take away the whitelist [23:16:53] If we do do this, I think we should give the Resomi players a week grace period, letting them know they need to re-read the lore, and re-apply, rather than just take away their whitelists. [23:17:00] That's what I was gonna do with Unathi [23:17:05] *** Quits: Raptor1628 (Raptor1628@sorcery-i2iat6.md.comcast.net) (Quit: SorceryNet Kiwi WebChat) [23:17:12] Jackal, that's not much different than taking it away and having them reapply. [23:17:44] Well, at least it avoids whitelist-worthy players not being able to play for a while [23:17:45] To me at least, it's the difference between a bunch of players understanding what's happening, and a bunch of players waking up one morning, wondering why they can't play their characters [23:18:02] And what Para said [23:18:08] imo: it should be made clear that resomi lore is changing, if players don't check it and keep playing to the old lore maintainers have the power to remove whitelisting if it comes to that [23:18:14] Either way, it seems that most people aren't in favor of a whitelist wipe. [23:18:22] Personally, i'm against having to re-do the whitelist. [23:18:38] *** Joins: Raptor1628 (Raptor1628@sorcery-i2iat6.md.comcast.net) [23:19:00] So, simple vote. Is anyone actually in favor of performing a whitelist wipe? [23:19:09] I think having like, a paragraph that is in more detail on how the different races act could be good [23:19:36] Daaneesh, that kind of stuff can be very hard to summarize [23:20:01] Well I mean, Tajaran and Unathi have a certain, personality trait [23:20:05] I find [23:20:35] If the current majority of play is going against the lore, it might be necessary, otherwise, I'd rather just PM all those with whitelists asking them to re-read the lore about changes [23:20:42] But they're kind of similar too. Backwater, clan-based aliens. [23:20:44] So summarizing the races personalities wouldn't be too hard [23:20:49] Yeah, that would take its own long summary, and if we are too specific on how an alien should act it could make it seem like we are putting hard walls in the player's way in terms of RP. [23:21:00] Resomi have a lot of similarities with other races [23:21:10] At the same time though, that's kind of a necessity when it comes to aliens, Chrono. [23:21:11] But you know, we have like 10 of em so its bound to happen [23:21:23] Right. Vox, Tajara, Unathi, and Skrell have a trait or stereotype which elevates their play, or bends their arm to make them more tolerable -- stops undesirable character traits from appearing. Resomi have a cutebird stereotype which does the opposite. [23:21:35] + dionaea [23:21:40] :< [23:21:51] Well yeah but who cares about trees? Dionaea too [23:21:58] i care :c [23:22:01] IPCs are just synthetic humans lets be honest. [23:22:01] Yes and I understand that, but we'd have to write it a certain way I would think. [23:22:02] ;_; [23:22:07] Yeah but no-one cares about you either, Ginja [23:22:09] :o [23:22:10] IPC are also in the same case: their stereotype is wacky crazy synth humans which is, also, a negative. [23:22:11] wow [23:22:22] I care about you, Ginja [23:22:22] >wacky crazy synth humans [23:22:30] What's a positive about Unathi? Super strong lizard people? [23:22:42] Synths have been suffering from some crazy-leeway as a whole, tbh [23:22:43] they are horny [23:22:47] I'd say the variety they have [23:22:57] Two Unathi are practically completely different [23:22:59] What I'm saying is with Dionaea, Skrell, Unathi, and Tajara, I can readily see and observe when someone is playing them wrong. It's obvious. [23:23:09] ^ [23:23:12] I'll agree on that [23:23:14] I guess the whole fact that they are traditional, but that could be seen as bad. [23:23:15] Ya [23:23:16] Yea very true [23:23:19] IPC and Resomi, it's not so obvious. [23:23:19] It's something I have a hard time doing with Resomii. [23:23:43] IPC are intentionally not obvious. They're vague enough to allow players to do what they want with relative freedom. [23:23:57] I see them as a more human-like race. [23:24:27] I really despise anime kawaii lol-randumb IPC. [23:24:31] With FBPs coming out honestly Snap I think like... [23:24:37] I know Borg's aren't technically a race, but some tend to play them almost human like, which bugs me [23:24:40] You need something to bring them out to distinction [23:24:44] I guess. [23:24:51] * ThatOneGuy really hates FBPs [23:24:55] Well they shouldn'e be kawaii uguu [23:25:00] Still going to plug my thread about prosthetics [23:25:04] because that's not really a realistic character. [23:25:05] I want to agree with you, Daaneesh, but actual borgs are technically humans in cans u.u [23:25:36] Also have people actually been playing lol random IPCs? [23:25:37] I really wish instead of just a simple body, you'd still have to pick and choose all of the individual components in order to have full-body prosthetics, so you could have a crunchy outer coating with gooey innarda [23:25:39] *innards [23:26:07] with the introduction of FBP, the distinction between FBP, IPC and borg got blurred [23:26:20] Well yes, but they have rules they have to follow. I'm fine with them played differently, but its silly when a Borg acts like a dog or says things like, "sup bro" or being rude to anyone giving them an order [23:26:25] Yeah. It sucks for IPCs because IMO FBPs are very much teh same thing. [23:26:47] I agree with Raptor [23:26:55] for the record [23:27:03] At least mechanically, outside of a few things. [23:27:18] and Borgs having as much...imagination, or conscious thought as a IPC or a "fbp" or a regular joe is dumb as well [23:27:22] the only reason you can't choose squishy parts is because part-synthetic fbps break a lot of code [23:27:47] also the robotizing code glitches a lot if the torso is robotic but lower limbs are not. [23:27:57] So it's clear that resomi, IPC, FBP (and by extension cyborgs) it's hard to tell from a casual observance that they're playing the role wrong. Or if there's even a way to play it wrong, unlike the case with the other alien races. [23:28:00] Orly? Are squishy internal organs disabled for them here? [23:28:09] I wouldn't expect someone to have a robotic torso but non-robotic limbs though [23:28:17] As they work now [23:28:23] I think we need to sit down and go "how not to play X", since "How to play X" isn't working on its own. [23:28:25] you just select "body" on the prosthetic screen [23:28:27] and it does all the work [23:28:30] I've legit only seen -a- through and through "Cutebird" [23:28:35] ^ [23:28:39] and it's a little unclear what's robotic and what isn't [23:28:41] And i've been thinking about removing their whitelist. [23:28:47] and a lot of players treat them like their own race [23:28:49] no please dont [23:28:58] raptor which is annoying [23:28:59] It's bad. [23:29:11] I have no desire to see birdstation12 [23:29:14] yeah, pleeeeease don't remove the resomi whitelist [23:29:19] I miss voxstation12 [23:29:20] I thought the problem with resomi was that they're all depressed / not working / back to where tajara where moving in packs [23:29:20] No, no. [23:29:21] I mean [23:29:21] Uh, guys [23:29:23] rather remove the race than remove the gate [23:29:23] Oh nono raptor, you can select different parts. You just need to do body first. [23:29:26] I mean the person's whitelist [23:29:29] :V [23:29:29] Ati means removing the whitelist of the one cutebird player [23:29:32] e.e [23:29:34] Back when vomit was everywhere nad you'd screech on general to figure out how many were on board [23:29:38] We could go to the time of Cael and add an alien upper cap on the population of the station. [23:29:42] And zuhayr would complain about here being too many. Good times. [23:29:47] and I mean not working as in, not doing their station job [23:29:52] I'm super against that, Asanadas. [23:29:55] I like that asanadas [23:29:59] though the torch sort of does that [23:30:01] We will, effectively, have that on the Torch Aticius [23:30:03] That'll make Xenos compete for their slots with vicious fervor [23:30:06] Asandas's suggestion of adding limit to alien races is good, but i'd like to see a per-race limit [23:30:16] that would be smarter ati [23:30:19] oohh [23:30:20] Yeah, but outright denying a person to play a character is fucking laaaame [23:30:21] *atlantis [23:30:28] As you can see heeeere. http://i.imgur.com/SHZRfnb.png [23:30:29] So it's not possible for, say, resomi to steal all slots, while not allowing a single tajara join [23:30:31] Isn't it already the case, though, Ati [23:30:38] spookertin [23:30:40] I'm talking about [23:30:41] select body [23:30:51] I mean, if you want to play your Captain, or your QM, and someone is already playing one... [23:30:52] then select whether or not individual organs are gooey or not [23:31:16] Well, hold on. Terms. "Organs", or internal organs specifically? [23:31:19] yes [23:31:22] internal organs [23:31:22] Species restrictions per job shouldn't be utterly mind numbing to implement [23:31:24] not limbs [23:31:53] I'd rather not put limits on species [23:31:54] Internal organs can be squishy, but you only get to select a few of them. [23:32:10] only two [23:32:11] The -most- I've seen of species on the server is around 8-10 [23:32:13] But to go back on species number limitation, I think a hard-cap would be counter-productive, HOWEVER, I think that each maintainer ought to decide of an "average" of the species on-station [23:32:13] heart and lungs [23:32:15] counting all of them [23:32:16] It would probably be super easy to add the others back tbh :D [23:32:19] actually 3, lungs [23:32:20] Oh, side topic: Can we fix the industrial RIG not fitting skrell. The whole point of that rig was to fit skrell and then someone slapped a human-only tag on it. [23:32:21] Alright. Species restrictions per job is a compromise. It will disincentive aliens in certain roles, which will disincentive aliens in general on a small note. [23:32:21] the rest of the 30 person crew is human [23:32:30] so 1/3 of the interstellar, TSC crew is alien [23:32:31] Percentage based cap would probably be better [23:32:36] how was the whole point of that to fit skrell mordie, the helmet shape? [23:32:38] That seems like a pretty good number for a far off system [23:32:39] I'm entirely against it. [23:32:46] Mordeth221: That can be fixed with a one line deletion, just put a bug up on the git and I'll get it eventually [23:32:47] Say, 25% at most. [23:32:52] if it was specifically designed to fit skrell [23:32:55] And with how Torch is, there's already a limit on the number of Xenos [23:33:04] There's no need to put caps [23:33:05] add skrell to the exception, don't remove the exception altogether [23:33:09] look at the sprite raptor. It's a wetsuit with strap on armour pads [23:33:17] If someone wants to play their Xeno character, let them. Just maybe not in that job, because someone else has it. [23:33:18] also im just asking here because [23:33:20] I cant into git [23:33:21] Hell, I barely ever see some of the species anymore [23:33:25] and some people here can into git [23:33:26] I don't think caps are necessary either. [23:33:30] that...isn't what it screams to me, but I can change that mordie [23:33:33] Mordeth221: Meeting is not really the place for this~ [23:33:37] ToG, you're mentioning another problem tbh [23:33:38] :V [23:33:55] Para I know, but I'm just trying to emphasize how there's no need for species cap [23:33:59] Skrell have been unforunately very unpopulated lately [23:34:04] As have taj [23:34:07] and unathi [23:34:11] Yes, some species are rarer, but some species are waaay over-represented [23:34:17] It's basically humans, vox, IPC, and Resomi [23:34:21] And vox! [23:34:22] Vox and Resomi are the new hot topics [23:34:29] I actually see vox these days, which is weird. [23:34:31] with FBP running up [23:34:52] TheWelp thats because the ability to eat lots of things is the best thing ever [23:34:53] And yeah, Skrell have been rarer these days, a strange inversion of last summer [23:34:57] characters with full body prosthetics aren't a species dammit [23:35:07] ^^^ [23:35:09] and considering their species is still pretty obvious from hair/tails/whatever [23:35:15] I'd suggest they don't change species name [23:35:20] skrell/taj/unathi all suffer from the fact that they are more or less reskinned humans with different lore and extra drawbacks, I can see why they aren't terribly popular [23:35:21] Agreed [23:35:22] or just get "augmented" added to their species name [23:35:28] I mean... if we have to, we can fairly easily disable fbps. [23:35:33] n-no D: [23:35:37] why [23:35:41] please god yes [23:35:41] :I [23:35:49] hanzers only [23:35:50] Haswell I -have- an updated Unathi sprite that makes them look better, rather than just a reskinned human, but making it work with clothing is..complicated. [23:35:57] Mordeth221 it took me a while to figure out how to do that. Now just to figure out how to let people extract stuff via surgery. [23:36:07] if we remove FBP's. Let IPC's wear hardsuits again. [23:36:11] Yeah [23:36:15] IPCs don't need hardsuits [23:36:16] or voidsuits w/e the metal ones are called that arent rigs [23:36:18] it's a balancing thing [23:36:18] yes [23:36:18] Didn't everything break because FBP's got added? [23:36:18] :( [23:36:19] they do [23:36:20] armour [23:36:23] Wear a vest [23:36:24] nerd [23:36:33] I don't mean reskin as in literal sprite changes, but more along the lines of they can't do anything that a human can't already do better. [23:36:42] Yeah great snap that fixes my torso armour [23:36:47] Tis true. And the sanic title got moved from taj to resomi [23:36:57] taj/resomi are the same speed afaiaa [23:36:58] if a humanoid shaped object can't fit in a humanoid shaped suit [23:37:06] But the FBP humanoid shaped object can, without issue [23:37:08] * Mordeth221 flip table [23:37:16] also how is it balance [23:37:33] I've not heard any complaints from godlike FBP sec officers or engineers in suits [23:37:39] Because their body is already permanently buffed in brute and burn [23:37:41] yeah taj/somi are the same speed [23:37:55] Not to the point it matters, at all. Snap. [23:37:55] If I had my way I probably wouldn't let fbps wear suits either. [23:37:59] Has I think that just comes with the age of the species [23:38:00] GinjaNinja32 it looks like taj slow down is half of what resomi is [23:38:01] But from what i know, where the tajaran, skrell, and unathi lack in different looks and physical differences skill wise to humans, they are bigger in the fact that they have long developed lore. Atleast thats how i see it. [23:38:08] Resomi at -1, Taj at -0.5 [23:38:16] From playing FBP I've lost a leg through a hardsuit in two-three shots [23:38:28] thats not gamebreaking [23:38:32] thats pretty normal to a human [23:38:47] Right well to get fbps in hardsuits we'd have to put a special snowflake check in the code. [23:38:53] *IPCs [23:38:59] no [23:39:00] you dont [23:39:06] Yeah, you do [23:39:12] you just have to take them off the restriction species list [23:39:12] I think the problem morde is that temperature shenanigens [23:39:21] And all that. [23:39:24] so change their species tempgain [23:39:35] I'm not changing their species tempgain again [23:39:35] No, I dno't think it is simulated while in hardsuits [23:39:37] Is what i'm saying [23:39:41] because that breaks all the temperature balancing [23:39:47] It's gimicky as fuck since Robots can go into space just fine with out coolers [23:40:07] Sure let's just make IPCs have absolutely no punishment for going out in space while we're at it. [23:40:12] and they're vastly more powerful than an IPC [23:40:15] Let's just say that the cyborg chassis have built-in thermal radiators. [23:40:36] then give IPCs a backpack item, say, that acts as a radiator while in space [23:40:42] there is one [23:40:44] They have that [23:40:47] it's called a cooling unit [23:40:47] the issue is they cant wear suits [23:40:50] then what's the issue [23:40:52] which makes them one-shot-wonders [23:40:57] If they wear suits they overheat. [23:40:59] if they have a cooling thing why do they need suits [23:41:04] Because armor [23:41:06] >_> [23:41:13] what suit has better armor than actual armor [23:41:15] :v [23:41:21] suits apply armour to all [23:41:27] One that covers limbs other than the torso [23:41:32] chest armour applies armour to the chest [23:41:36] I still kinda want cyborgs to just be lawed FBPs [23:41:52] and the armoury is far, far, far harder to get into than the EVA gear that every department has [23:41:53] I understood IPC take brute damage due to lack of pressure, or is that only for FBP? [23:42:00] only FBPs take pressure brute [23:42:26] all those tactical vests/gloves/boots are wearable for FBPs/IPCs, tell IPC sec to wear a vest [23:42:40] IPCs currently aren't really allowed in sec [23:42:41] At some point, we should consider perhaps making a universal system for synths, ALL synths, androids/borgs/IPCs/FPBs, and then differentiate them, rather than, y'know, try to snowflake them all to death [23:42:48] though the balance change was made, they haven't been cleared for sec officer. [23:42:55] What is most obvious here is that FBPs don't really have a place right now, and are confusing more than anything [23:43:03] Yes [23:43:03] hold on [23:43:08] I thought IPC detectives/warden is a thing? At least I've seen them around. [23:43:11] yes [23:43:14] IPC's actually have a debuff to brute and burn now Snap [23:43:17] Plus broke all the things [23:43:17] https://wiki.baystation12.net/Species_comparison [23:43:18] sexy spaghooti: Species comparison - Baystation 12 wiki [23:43:20] Snapshot> though the balance change was made, they haven't been cleared for sec officer. [23:43:30] Yes Mord I know [23:43:30] Daaneesh, broke what? :v [23:43:32] I made the change [23:43:45] Actually that's old [23:43:46] So that invalidates your earlier point about balance [23:43:54] if they actually take more damage flat out [23:44:00] The current balance for IPCs is 0.8 on virtue of robolimbs [23:44:04] is it gonna be worth suggesting merging IPCs and FBPs, giving them identical effects/etc and just put them both under "Machine" whitelist ie IPC [23:44:06] spookerton: blood broke and dead people had a pulse and vise versa. I think a couple other things [23:44:23] o.O [23:44:27] I support GN's suggestion [23:44:29] I heard that was because FBPs were added [23:44:32] that way they don't need pointless differentiation just for the sake of IPCs being different [23:44:47] I really think [23:44:47] I actually think that's a good idea Ginja. [23:44:53] because it's then IPCs/FBPs being different from meatbody, which they already are [23:44:53] We shoud merge Ginja and Welp's ideas [23:44:53] That sounds more like incomplete inclusion. FBPs don't have a pulse to begin with. [23:44:53] Making them same or very similar code wise would be a good step [23:44:54] Agreed [23:44:57] I also support GinjaNinja's proposal [23:45:09] And just have a universal synth mechanics [23:45:10] There is one tricky part [23:45:35] Spook: ya, I think it confused the code into thinking that people shouldnt have a pulse when alive [23:45:41] Universal synth mechanics! Huzzah! [23:45:45] i've actually seen reports that [23:45:48] dead people have a pulse [23:45:51] and living people don't [23:45:53] Ya [23:45:55] i have no idea if this is the case [23:45:55] Making all lawed-synth, IPCs and FBPs the same kind of mob, except some have posi-brains, other have MMIs, and the laws are just a thing that can be added/removed [23:45:56] That happened [23:46:01] It was [23:46:10] that's a major refactor [23:46:12] I suspect that FBP port missed a later fix [23:46:18] you're asking for a full synth refactor. [23:46:21] I draw the line at giving cyborgs hands. That's against what cyborgs are as an SS13 concept. [23:46:21] I suggested moving IPC/FBP from human to silicon, was too much work [23:46:30] I noticed that when people were dragging around dead people, thinking they were alive [23:46:35] Because I do recall a ! was needed or unintended somewhere on Polaris [23:46:38] ideally, carbon/silicon should be separate from human/not [23:46:39] That's a major thing, yeah, but if we keep trying to poke at small bits like this whole conversation suggests, there will /always/ be issues with synths [23:46:45] or rather humanoid/not [23:46:52] That's actually a very nice thing. Having actual human body styled cyborgs, that are AI bound would be great replacement to current cyborgs. [23:47:11] And the further we snowflake the various synths, the harder it'll be to fix anything later on [23:47:20] the biggest concern is that IPCs act exactly like human by virtue of how they're intended to act code-wise. [23:47:24] that way you could have carbon humanoids (humans/unathi/etc), silicon humanoids (IPCs), carbon non-humanoids (mice etc), silicon non-humanoids (AI, pAI, borgs) [23:47:27] if we make them a synthetic subtype [23:47:30] I like some of the sprites for the cyborgs ;_; [23:47:31] Anyway, FBPs are literally IPC 2.0, and AFAIK they have the same thermal mechanics as IPCs unless that was specifically removed. I don't really see the point to the OLD guys when, really, their "species" is actually the magic cube, not the TV-head. Would it really be so terrible to keep both in concept, but just rebuild IPCs as a human subtype that is just an FBP with a posibrain and special sprites? [23:47:32] there's going to be a lot of copied code [23:47:46] Skrell are Human+ code wise snapshot [23:47:51] they're identicle minus helmet restrictions [23:48:01] Skrell use the human defines [23:48:02] my point is [23:48:03] and skrell have been doign fine [23:48:30] making IPCs a synthetic subtype means copying code for life, for icon updates, practically everything human code has. [23:49:02] hrm [23:49:03] yeah, that sort of refactor is not gonna happen [23:49:17] Players can currently select prosthetics manually. How should that be limited if FBPs are whitelisted? [23:49:31] body is only available with an fbp whitelist [23:49:31] standard prosthetics same as always, unwhitelisted [23:49:39] since body is what makes you an fbp [23:49:40] but FBP only available with whitelist [23:49:41] mm [23:50:04] what about the head [23:50:07] just check whitelist before adding 'Body' as an available choice, before accepting the option for it, and before spawning a character [23:50:14] Mordeth221, head option only shows up if you already did the body [23:50:19] head isn't selectable unless body is synthetic. [23:50:30] ok [23:50:40] but [23:50:44] as a side note [23:50:50] skrell are a sterling example that [23:50:57] people didn't really want fancy mechanics [23:51:06] they just want to roleplay spacemans. [23:51:08] like 2 people play skrell [23:51:09] nobody plays skrell [23:51:15] i play skrell occasionally [23:51:19] * GinjaNinja32 nobody [23:51:23] * Mordeth221 points back to time when skrell was popular [23:51:26] I don't even play Skrell [23:51:29] They didn't have mechanics back then either [23:51:35] * Paradoxon is totally not trying to fit into the whole Skrell-bashing [23:51:43] XD [23:51:44] Every species is unpopular because resomi [23:51:51] Ha [23:51:54] Ya* [23:51:55] But, yeah, Skrell had their hightlights (last fucking summer), without fancy mechanics, though [23:52:46] So, do we really want to whitelist fbps? [23:52:55] or are we wanting to merge them into IPCs? [23:53:16] Merge but dont do backflips and 300 pages of code [23:53:20] simple and functional [23:53:21] I've given my personal, very hypocritical opinion about synths as a whole. Everything else, well... I couldn't care less, to be honest :o [23:53:27] not snowflakes with 900 restrictions [23:53:30] I am against whitelisting FBP. [23:53:31] merging into FBP/IPC sounds better to me [23:53:39] I think a full merge into IPC would need some lore changes for IPC, but a whitelist merge would be ok imo [23:53:41] Because I'm a bit concerned about merging them into IPCs by way of sullying the already delicate IPC lore and playbase. [23:54:00] hrm [23:54:02] it's that or remove FBPs [23:54:11] stick to prosthetic organs and extremities [23:54:19] which I'd prefer [23:54:33] if we merge IPCs and FBPs, then why wouldn't station synthetics need a whitelist? [23:54:38] tbh [23:54:40] because they're essentially the same [23:54:49] unless we make them only the "chip brain" kind [23:54:54] They would be law-bound [23:54:54] I'm with Raptor on this one. [23:54:58] station synths are lawbound [23:55:03] so lore question to make sense to me [23:55:06] This is just nonsense. FBP do not need a whitelist. [23:55:06] side note: I wish people will actually justify why their character have robot bits rather than just going "because I (as the player) want to" [23:55:10] *** Quits: Aticius (Aticius@sorcery-nrk.227.255.206.IP) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds) [23:55:17] FBP's Are they Neural laces in suits? [23:55:27] FBPs are MMIs in full bodies [23:55:36] basically an MMI in an IPC style shell [23:55:37] There is no lore behind FBP. There is no expectation of traits or history. It's just humans in robotic shells. There is NO NEED for a whitelist. [23:55:54] That's the thing, I don't want to whitelist fbps [23:56:00] And what makes someone incompatible with a neural lace over an MMI [23:56:01] like [23:56:11] *** Joins: Aticius (Aticius@sorcery-nrk.227.255.206.IP) [23:56:14] neural lace is not a brain [23:56:15] my suggestion was mostly because it'd allow merging FBP and IPC mechanics without FBP just becoming IPC-lite [23:56:18] why pay for a robotic person when Neural laces are a thing and a body is a step away [23:56:24] I only give my characters prosthetics of any kind if its for a good reason. A lot of people just add them because they are cool which is silly [23:56:41] that way mechanically they can be identical, while not just making it so noone ever plays IPC because FBP is identical with no whitelist [23:56:50] Neural lace people are actually "new" people, is the thing. From an existentialism standpoint, you are still you in your brain. [23:56:56] What if there was a button that was like, "why do you want 'x'?" Or something [23:57:11] that's what med records are for [23:57:18] I just think FBP's step on the toes of IPC's for free. [23:57:20] why the prosthetics happened, when they were installed, etc [23:57:26] Ya but a lot of people don't do anything with those [23:57:33] then encourage them to [23:57:34] remove FBP, allow IPCs to select the body and head types that FBPs have now [23:57:40] they always could Raptor [23:57:50] (and allow ipc's back into hardsuits :V) [23:57:52] no they couldn't, Snapshot [23:57:57] they couldn't select body or head [23:58:00] Yes they can [23:58:02] select body [23:58:03] they *can* now [23:58:04] click morpheus [23:58:05] I wish we could force people to add a medical record. Is that bad? [23:58:08] and now you have access to everything [23:58:09] but they couldn't always [23:58:27] Daaneesh an auto-template would be nice but [23:58:29] that's new with the FBP port, before that they could only get arms/legs [23:58:29] they could since the fbp merge [23:58:33] exactly [23:58:33] yeah [23:58:38] Agreed [23:58:40] So [23:58:46] I think we'll need to call a vote on this one [23:58:50] why not do it the other way around [23:58:55] like [23:58:58] "the other way around"? [23:58:59] What do you mean? [23:59:08] FBP's are functional code wise, and IPC's have heating issues. [23:59:08] B-but MMIs exist, and posibrains exist. Why can only posibrains have artificial torsos. :< [23:59:17] How much work will it be to make FBP code play nice with meat organs? [23:59:19] IPCs do not have heating issues [23:59:20] IPC "heating issues" are intentional [23:59:28] they're a coded-in feature [23:59:31] they are not a bug [23:59:37] yes but an FBP is more functional @_@ [23:59:45] FBPs have tradeoffs [23:59:46] As it stands, I really dislike FBPs being the only way to get robot lungs/liver/stuff [23:59:54] which is why we're discussing ways to change that [23:59:55] that's [23:59:58] the entire topic of this [00:00:03] okay hold on [00:00:04] i suggested something that would let us merge the two [00:00:07] show of hands [00:00:14] it may not be the best way, but it's *a* way [00:00:18] I think there's actually at least two conversations happening. [00:00:29] Who here has played a around as a security FBP and fought in a hardsuit [00:00:33] show of hands [00:00:36] I have. [00:00:38] One is "can we merge them", the other is "can we delete the non-IPC ones". [00:00:45] I have [00:00:47] I have not played a single round as FBP yet [00:00:48] I haaaave. [00:00:53] I've beat dudes up in a hardsuit as a FPB security officer [00:00:58] FBP* [00:01:00] I have not [00:01:06] But what's your point? [00:01:10] This is the most intense meeting we've had in a long time [00:01:10] spookerton, it's to figure out how we can stop having two totally different synth-humanoid mechanics [00:01:14] Okay now. Did you feel like you had any definable advantage over another species [00:01:19] whether that's a merge, a deletion, whatever [00:01:25] Snapshot: I add drama~ [00:01:28] XD [00:01:30] I had a disadvantage, because I didn't have a backslot for a jetpack. [00:01:35] yeah i blame Daaneesh for the meeting [00:01:36] *nod [00:01:37] I know, right, Snapshot? [00:01:39] ;_; [00:01:40] Hey, the boss wants to have a vote [00:01:46] everybody shut up and let him lay out the options [00:01:48] Okay [00:01:50] So [00:01:51] Snapshot, did i give you +vote last time or [00:01:54] yeah [00:01:55] ok [00:02:00] I forgot the format though [00:02:06] GinjaNinja32, Of course we can, they fill the same role code-wise but FBPs are a fresh take with better guts AFAIK. [00:02:12] makevote "question" "option" "option"? [00:02:15] `votemake question | option | option` iirc [00:02:18] kk [00:02:22] !votemake foo? | yes | no [00:02:22] 14Mister Host Person: Vote created; vote ID '0NKU7' [00:02:23] Okay sorry but I gotta jet. See you guys later, its DCI finals watching time. [00:02:29] !voteinfo 0NKU7 [00:02:29] 14Mister Host Person: Vote 0NKU7: foo? [00:02:29] 14Mister Host Person: Options: yes; no [00:02:30] yeah [00:02:41] how do you vote, ginja [00:02:45] *** Quits: ThatOneGuy (ThatOneGuy@sorcery-bav.qdh.57.173.IP) (Quit: Leaving) [00:02:49] you vote with !vote 0NKU7 yes [00:02:50] !votemake Would you like to remove FBPs (completely from organic species) | Yes | No [00:02:51] Snapshot: Vote created; vote ID 'X4HK3' [00:03:05] Go ahead and vote on that [00:03:07] it works in query if you'd prefer to vote there [00:03:13] ^ [00:03:14] probably better with the numbers of us here [00:03:17] !vote X4HK3 No [00:03:17] ??????: Vote cast. [00:03:19] *shrug [00:03:20] I'll give everyone 5 minutes to vote. [00:03:23] !vote no [00:03:23] Haswell: Invalid vote id! [00:03:29] !vote x4hk3 yes [00:03:29] Mrs. Mij: Invalid vote id! [00:03:31] !vote X4HK3 Yes [00:03:31] Atlantis: Vote cast. [00:03:34] It's a bad idea, and it removes one of my character concepts. [00:03:34] ;_; [00:03:36] it's all case-sensitive [00:03:38] !vote X4HK3 no [00:03:38] Haswell: Invalid option; valid options: Yes; No [00:03:42] !vote X4HK3 No [00:03:42] Haswell: Vote cast. [00:03:44] !vote yes [00:03:44] Raptor1628: Invalid vote id! [00:03:46] !vote X4HK3 no [00:03:46] Asanadas: Invalid option; valid options: Yes; No [00:03:49] !vote X4HK3 No [00:03:49] Asanadas: Vote cast. [00:03:52] !vote X4HK3 yes [00:03:52] Raptor1628: Invalid option; valid options: Yes; No [00:03:53] !vote X4HK3 yes [00:03:53] Mrs. Mij: Invalid option; valid options: Yes; No [00:03:54] !vpte X4HK3 No [00:03:57] dammit man [00:03:58] how are you all doing the same thing [00:03:58] WHAT [00:03:59] !vote X4HK3 Yes [00:03:59] Raptor1628: Vote cast. [00:04:01] it's CASE SENSITIVE [00:04:03] !vote X4HK3 Yes [00:04:03] Jackalhunter: Vote cast. [00:04:06] Yes != yes [00:04:06] !vote X4HK3 Yes [00:04:06] Chronograph: Vote cast. [00:04:07] You should really remove the case sensitivity, heh [00:04:08] !vote X4HK3 No [00:04:08] sexy spaghooti: Vote cast. [00:04:11] x4hk3 != X4HK3 [00:04:15] I AM ON MY PHONE [00:04:19] WELL DON'T BE [00:04:20] I THOUGHT I CAPS [00:04:28] you did caps [00:04:29] you just didn't [00:04:30] Yes [00:04:31] sanitize those inputs >.> [00:04:35] Im on a wireless keyboard naked in my bed eating dinner with a pulled calf [00:04:36] ;~; [00:04:39] Haswell, they are sanitised [00:04:43] that's why you get "nope" [00:04:47] !vote X4HK3 YES [00:04:47] Mrs. Mij: Invalid option; valid options: Yes; No [00:04:52] :| [00:04:57] I GIVE UP [00:05:05] Daan [00:05:07] And so ends women's suffrage [00:05:09] Just [00:05:10] "Yes" [00:05:11] Yes, or No, just like that [00:05:12] pls [00:05:13] you want '!vote X4HK3 Yes' [00:05:21] not YES or yes, Yes [00:05:31] !vote X4HK3 Yes [00:05:31] Mrs. Mij: Vote cast. [00:05:34] -.- [00:05:37] ... [00:05:42] I hate my phone [00:05:43] can we just [00:05:44] http://www.strawpoll.me/10986062 [00:05:46] Haswell: Would you like to remove FBPs (comple... - Straw Poll [00:05:52] No we're doin' the IRC vote [00:05:57] It's already habbenin' [00:05:58] :-( [00:05:59] I dont have a wireless mouse [00:06:01] Don't mix it up [00:06:04] i only have a wireless keyboard [00:06:05] ircvote is happen [00:06:09] 3 minutes [00:06:10] !votecount X4HK3 [00:06:10] 14Mister Host Person: Vote X4HK3 has 10 votes. [00:06:32] I'm abstaining my vote in case we have a tie [00:06:35] heh [00:06:44] cheater [00:06:44] !vote X4HK3 yes [00:06:44] Gavin: Invalid option; valid options: Yes; No [00:06:53] It's my job as headmin Mord [00:06:57] Gavin, it's case sensitive [00:06:59] But seriously though regardless of the outcome this vote is odd because it's happening over several separate issues, at least a couple of which are technical topics relating to implementation and ports, and one of which has a very muddied background. :s [00:07:04] aye [00:07:05] c: [00:07:15] Yes, the vote is fundamentally flawed [00:07:21] The simple vote right now is whether we want to remove it, or try a different approach [00:07:35] That's the way we're looking at things now [00:07:42] Yes but there are compounding things that make "remove it" a very odd and final first step. :x [00:07:51] We want to remove it because "bugs"??? [00:07:55] if we don't want to remove it, we ask for a whitelist approach vote. If we don't want to whitelist it, then we discuss a different way of fixing it. [00:08:10] What exactly is even being fixed? Players having access to FBP? [00:08:16] I have not seen the issue. [00:08:16] im [00:08:25] actually with asan and spook with this [00:08:32] shouldn't remove be the -last- option [00:08:36] after all others are exhausted [00:08:44] I agree w/ morde [00:08:48] If we want to remove it in general, then we don't need to discuss it more was my thoughts. [00:08:55] 10 seconds [00:09:11] !voteresult X4HK3 [00:09:11] Vote X4HK3: Would you like to remove FBPs (completely from organic species) [00:09:11] No: 5 [00:09:11] Yes: 5 [00:09:12] If we decide to just axe an organic's ability to select FBP, that completely destroys one of my character concepts. [00:09:15] Yeah but the point isn't that there's any kind of consensus on "remove it" or not be-hahaha [00:09:17] I'm fundamentally against it [00:09:20] * GinjaNinja32 ninja-fixes a !voteresult issue [00:09:21] Lawl [00:09:25] because there are several different discussions going on at the same time [00:09:44] We need to be more organized. One topic at a time [00:09:51] (it was ukeysort()-ing on count, meaning a tied vote didn't print one of the options) [00:09:52] One discussion at a time [00:10:13] Regardless, the vote is tied. I don't want to see them removed, so we're not removing them at this time. [00:10:31] Now. Let's actually try and formulate a list of what's wrong with FBPs right now. [00:10:52] There's nothing wrong with FBP other than people playing them as kawaii desu snowflakes. [00:10:57] I am guilty. [00:11:02] Haha [00:11:27] They're IPC 2.0. It's a way of playing an unlawed "synthetic", without having to get a whitelist. [00:11:36] ... It's not really though. [00:11:44] Because an FBP is just a person. [00:11:45] They are by definition not synthetic. They are an organic mind in a prosthesis. [00:11:51] In a prosthet- yeh. [00:12:08] It's why I put the quotes, but yeah, I understand that part [00:12:18] "They are by definition not synthetic. They are an organic mind in a prosthesis. " [00:12:26] We don't have to worry about the fundamental issue in which IPC justifies its whitelist -- the synthetic mind, with synthetic lore and history -- because the FBP character is by definition a human mind. [00:12:31] So is it people's belief that the distinction between FBP and IPC is to similar? [00:12:33] Wouldn't that definition also totally fit cyborgs, who /are/ synthetics, though [00:12:34] So... Why not just have someone have a full body prothestics? [00:12:35] The justification for IPC whitelisting just does not come into play for IPC. [00:12:39] I mean for FBP [00:13:03] I feel for that reason it shouldnt be a separate race ._. [00:13:05] Well presumably daan some people actually want to play a free posibrain. [00:13:07] o 3o [00:13:13] The cyborg issue is irrelevant to FBP. If you really want to fight the fight of whitelisting cyborgs, then you come into issue against SS13 as a concept. [00:13:31] Oh, I'm not talking about whitelisting cyborgs. [00:13:34] as yet another aside [00:13:39] IPC's used to be unwhitelisted [00:13:48] Can we save asides until the current topic has been discussed [00:13:52] if FBPs stick around, change the species name back to their original species as a start [00:13:54] its [00:13:56] relevant [00:14:08] half the problem is everyone's going "another thing, another thing, another thing" and then we have 5 conversations at once. [00:14:19] we're discussing whitelisting FBP's The counter is unwhitelisting IPC's [00:14:22] Which they used to be [00:14:35] Alright. Should FBP be whitelisted? My answer is 'no' they shouldn't. [00:14:42] imo no [00:14:44] I don't think so either. [00:14:47] no [00:14:50] No [00:14:57] What you've actually got is 1. "They broke things when they were introduced." 2. "They're too similar to IPCs but have less restrictions." 2a. "I don't know the difference off the top of my head, aren't they just the same thing?" 3. "I can't select all of my organs to be unassisted meat organs." 4. "FBPs are a newer version of IPCs" 5. "IPCs are whitelisted, FBPs aren't. Mechanically, does this give FBPs an unfair advantage?" [00:15:19] And a couple of minor variations on those topics. [00:15:34] Thank you for compiling that, Spookerton [00:15:36] Internal organs and synthetic organs for organic people are a stretch goal / power goal I believe that Snapshot may or may not go further to implement. [00:15:52] synthetic organs would be relatively trivial. [00:16:18] Oh also Snapshot 6. "If FBPs are, codewise, IPC 2.0 - is it reasonable to roll them into the same code entirely, but keep IPCs as a special type of FBP?" [00:16:31] So, let's work down the list [00:16:39] 1."They broke things when they were introduced." [00:16:43] What things are still broken? [00:16:51] Virology. [00:16:58] Are pulses on corpses still broken? [00:17:03] No [00:17:10] Alright, then virology apparently [00:17:15] what broke overlays was that prosthetics or chinsky [00:17:21] what's broken with virology? [00:17:24] People seem to bleed just fine too [00:17:41] The thing in virology that broke is that no one can create antibodies to make a cure for the viruses [00:17:41] Monkeys don't get infected was the last report I saw [00:17:50] Been like that for a couple weeks [00:17:52] I've got to run, but I'm going to reiterate my point... IPC justify and demand a whitelist, because the background of the IPC lore is required to play one. There is no such thing involved for FBP, and as such there is no justification for a whitelist. [00:18:14] Any quick retorts to that? I really have to go. [00:18:21] No, that's my opinion too [00:18:25] The problem is, that people often play FBPs almost as IPCs [00:18:37] Then slap them for not playing their own species' lore. [00:18:40] Then we as the staff team need to crack down on that, yeah [00:18:44] Also had an issue a couple days ago where I couldn't put blood in a dude again, but haven't seen the issue since [00:18:54] A big part of not playing as their own species [00:19:02] is that they display as "android" and "gynoid" [00:19:06] which is all kinds of incorrect [00:19:11] I agree. we're fixing that [00:19:17] oh uhm [00:19:22] IPC surgery is still broken iirc [00:19:27] Good good. I better not come back and have somebody tellin' me I can't play my character~ [00:19:27] their original species name, "augmented species" or "Cyborg" are al acceptable replacements [00:19:33] asanadas [00:19:38] you can't play your character~ [00:19:43] if you remove the brain during the 'rebooting/reviving an ipc' phase. It just deletes the brain when you remove it. [00:19:44] ./kick Raptor1628 [00:19:50] :c [00:19:53] only happens to IPC's iirc, not FBP's [00:19:54] <3 [00:19:56] *** Quits: Asanadas (Asanadas@wetskrell.nt) (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) [00:20:07] i've gotta hop off too, need sleeeep; i'll look back and read logs tomorrow morning [00:20:10] Well the surgery code will have to be looked at then. [00:20:15] and thats because they're an active posibrain, inside an inactive posibrain, inside the IPC chest [00:20:16] !todo read meeting logs from 2220 [00:20:16] 14Mister Host Person: Inserted as entry 19. [00:20:18] night [00:20:21] Night Ginja [00:20:27] which is all kinds of wierd [00:20:46] Well if we're still on point 1 [00:20:48] night ginja [00:20:51] That's not an FBP problem :p [00:20:51] we are [00:20:58] Goodnight, Ginja [00:21:12] its what fbp's broke tho [00:21:22] I think its how the surgery changed but [00:21:31] I have literally 0 code sense [00:22:11] Same [00:22:31] Soooo. [00:22:32] Virology broken - monkeys do not generate antibodies. / POSSIBLY cannot transfer blood to some people's vessel? / FBP names should reflect origin species, eg. "Skrell Cyborg". / Taking a brain out of an IPC while the IPC is being rebooted deletes the brain. [00:22:40] Those have issues? [00:22:47] On the repo? [00:22:47] Yes [00:23:11] * Daaneesh brb real quick [00:23:22] im going to go with 'i think so' [00:23:42] im an old man with a newspaper when it comes to github [00:24:06] also snap lead the paaack [00:24:16] Alright, I just changed fbps [00:24:21] we're just talking about github until you lead us onto the next topic [00:24:22] Well I think that's everything for 1 that everyone's got for now. [00:24:22] oh [00:24:25] they'll now say "A cyborg [species.name]" [00:24:29] awesome [00:24:30] s/topic/issue [00:24:30] we're just talking about github until you lead us onto the next issue [00:24:33] Excellent :D [00:24:34] Thanks [00:24:40] do we still get the bright red indicators of their limbs? [00:24:45] yes [00:24:46] like "they have a hephaestus right arm!" [00:24:59] thats actually useful raptor [00:25:05] you need it for surgery on them [00:25:10] mm hmm [00:25:25] it wasn't working previously [00:25:27] was that fixed? [00:25:40] i've done ipcsurgery a few times [00:25:49] it updates to, blah blah arm with an open maint panel! [00:25:50] yada yada [00:26:03] It should have been working [00:26:06] I've never seen issues with it [00:26:19] oh uhm [00:26:29] should nanopaste work on fbp/ipc [00:26:43] atm it's not applicable to either [00:27:00] is the panel open? [00:27:02] it should be working [00:27:07] IIRC for FBPs it's something you apply after opening a hatch, rather than to their surface. [00:27:40] yeah the surgery with wires/welders works fine [00:28:02] i've just not been able to get nanopaste to work on anything other than actual synth robots [00:28:18] may be an oversight [00:28:22] Are we good for part 2? [00:28:24] but I think we can move onto the net- [00:28:25] ye [00:28:29] 2. "They're too similar to IPCs but have less restrictions." [00:28:45] I think we answered that in point 1 [00:28:48] with lore/no lore [00:28:52] ^ [00:29:15] So is it a problem with them being too similar? [00:29:46] tbqh I think all it will ever boil down to is the same as like [00:29:53] bopping sane and mature players [00:29:54] * Daaneesh back [00:29:59] right [00:30:01] Yes. It's also what Atlantis said, with more people playing them like IPCs. Almost all FBP's use the IPC naming scheme, act more like robots, etc. [00:30:05] 'hey you your not a robot' is the crux [00:30:09] and I guess that answers 2a [00:30:18] oh uh [00:30:20] all we need to do as staff is boop players for playing synthlight [00:30:23] issue with #2 actually [00:30:30] Vat grown human cyborg names [00:30:53] Ah. The elusive double snowflake. [00:31:00] 8D [00:31:02] >elusive [00:31:04] just looking for a y/n on the naming scheme like [00:31:15] Vat grown#s already can have robot-like names [00:31:20] also, what about people with FBPs that are supposed to be freed cyborgs [00:31:25] e.g. (vat ID)-(numbers) [00:31:35] ah [00:31:37] the elusive [00:31:39] triple snowflake [00:31:44] a vat grown human freed cyborg [00:31:45] who is this [00:31:46] four chan [00:31:59] this is starting to sound very PC :( [00:32:11] actually [00:32:15] now that we're saying it out loud [00:32:22] I dont think its an issue anymore [00:32:28] Those are decent points that are difficult to answer. I think the best way to address them is basically to say "these are your main points of origin as an FBP: normal hummus, vat hummus, or free cyborg hummus. They usually have these naming conventions, but they're all pretty much just bean paste." [00:32:33] its going to be a hella-neiche thing it can be case by case [00:32:48] in your species identification thinger. [00:32:50] god damn hummus [00:34:17] So, Snapshot [00:34:18] yeah I think its pretty ok to move onto the next point [00:34:25] are chickpeas really beans? [00:34:28] not really [00:34:30] they're peas [00:34:34] god damn human peas [00:34:38] also [00:34:39] No, but I didn't want to look it up. [00:34:39] yes jackal? [00:34:40] :D [00:34:41] I have one quick question. What are the naming schemes for FBPs? [00:34:48] aaaa [00:34:50] exactly the same as the host species [00:34:52] Conform to species standards as required. [00:34:53] :D [00:35:01] also [00:35:03] Thank you. [00:35:06] instead of posting logs to this half of the meeting [00:35:09] can we just post this [00:35:10] http://i.imgur.com/q8mVVM4.jpg [00:35:16] The only problem is when you have a catman with a human FBP. [00:35:26] actually [00:35:26] That guy's called Steve Al-Rrr'ka. [00:35:28] they have tails [00:35:30] so it's cool [00:35:38] same with unathibot [00:35:43] OH HOLD ON [00:35:44] I HAVE PICTURES [00:35:48] O= [00:36:08] https://puu.sh/quq6s/e8a8e0d08a.png [00:36:15] That is the level of kawaii you can reach [00:36:16] I made an amazingly disgusting one once. [00:36:19] good lord [00:36:20] literal cat-people [00:36:22] kill it with fire [00:36:25] oh [00:36:28] if people do that shit [00:36:29] just slap them [00:36:32] VeyMed frames [00:36:44] I'm going to be making species variants of the ward takashi frames for non-humans [00:36:48] and hopefully getting them whitelisted [00:36:51] according to the host species [00:36:53] so like [00:36:58] skrell ward-takashi frames [00:37:02] for people skrell whitelisted [00:37:02] WT is beautiful :3 [00:37:09] of course with the approval of the species maintainer. [00:37:17] oh and [00:37:26] a second thing that will actually need to be disabled snapshot [00:37:35] Oh hmm [00:37:37] resomi can't be fbp's. Makes sense because sprites [00:37:37] but [00:37:38] vox [00:37:39] the limbs thing doesn't show up anymore [00:37:39] https://puu.sh/quv3K/20c7c3b53f.png [00:37:43] can be FBP's for some reason [00:37:46] this needs fiiiiiiixed [00:37:50] fiine [00:37:50] OH GOD [00:37:56] Well, they can have FBPs [00:38:01] But as long as they look vaguely voxish [00:38:03] no they cant, welp [00:38:04] and aren't branded [00:38:08] the sprites are all [00:38:10] so very very wrong [00:38:19] and voxish, on human fbp shames [00:38:27] Should Vox FBPs vomit oil every five minutes [00:38:27] I know, I know. But if they are changed to be on a species by species basis, and look vox [00:38:30] shapes* [00:38:40] b-but fluff wise [00:38:45] http://i.imgur.com/CGcaY8z.png [00:38:49] The perfect being. [00:38:51] who would spend money on an fbp potato-puke-bag [00:38:55] fuck [00:38:58] Spookerton [00:39:01] if someone does that [00:39:04] Oh lordy [00:39:04] wait [00:39:05] unathi with full body prosthetics are pretty neat looking [00:39:08] here's a new question [00:39:11] should [00:39:17] synthbans apply to FBPs as well [00:39:18] :V [00:39:23] no [00:39:27] No [00:39:28] It'd be for real vox instead of pariahs [00:39:33] synth ban is the all-access ban basically [00:39:36] and access to any machine [00:39:39] Interesting, But i don't think that should apply. [00:39:40] do we need like an fbp specific ban? [00:39:41] If they're going to have a organic brain, they're not synths [00:39:47] in case people continue to be shitheads [00:39:49] More than likely [00:39:53] no that can [00:39:53] or are we just going to give them the standard ban? [00:39:57] probably result in a server ban [00:40:03] because failure to fix their mistakes [00:40:20] I did that on polaris for a little while right after FBPs happened. It was a college student with rich parents that'd gotten drunk one day and signed a bunch of shit on a dare and gotten done up with an FBP with a full cat ears and tail thing. He was an engineer, and he spent his entire life trying to avoid being in public because of the shame. 8) [00:40:25] its not like we ban people from humans [00:41:04] *** Quits: Gavin (Gavin@sorcery-kodvab.tukw.qwest.net) (Quit: Leaving) [00:41:09] kk [00:41:12] You could make synth bans apply to FBPs. [00:41:17] But it seems a little [00:41:21] next thing then [00:41:25] 3. "I can't select all of my organs to be unassisted meat organs." [00:41:25] Mm. [00:41:31] is this a pun, spook that better not be a pun [00:41:40] oh good you didnt make a pun [00:41:42] is this in regards to robo-copping it up? [00:41:59] That's pretty much a code issue Snapshot, Raptor mentioned that he wished he could have an FBP with full normal meat internal organs. [00:42:14] And I think at the moment the best you can do is assisted heart/eyes. [00:42:16] I honestly wish anybody could select robo organs [00:42:21] and robos could select meat organs [00:42:35] what happens if they get EMP'd though [00:42:38] meat organs for internal or external? [00:42:40] also yeah [00:42:51] regular people with synthetics will keel over and die because of EMP [00:42:52] :( [00:43:12] but if a synthetic person with meat organs gets empd does [00:43:14] th-they do that anyway o-o [00:43:16] anything even happen [00:43:21] Well I mean [00:43:26] Their limbs might blow off [00:43:30] But their heart will be okay. [00:43:30] http://i.imgur.com/PiPYRaY.png [00:43:38] Nice [00:43:40] :D [00:43:41] that look gucci? [00:43:45] Yep [00:43:49] it looks like fucking guac [00:43:50] >:I [00:43:59] guac is ok [00:44:01] Maybe capitalize the C on cyborg, but yeah, excellent. [00:45:18] what was the next point [00:45:18] okay so [00:45:25] Raptor1628: in regards to the machine limb references [00:45:29] But yeah, I think 3. is at least in part a general wishlist thing for internal organs that is accentuated by FBPs existing. [00:45:31] if a person is fully synthetic [00:45:33] I mean internal organs [00:45:36] their robolimbs will not print [00:45:38] on exmain [00:46:05] KK [00:46:05] is there any way to fix that? [00:46:12] do you want it to always print? [00:46:15] * Aticius sweats [00:46:16] that's a one line fix [00:46:18] you're still on [00:46:19] FBPs [00:46:23] yeah, if we're treating them like someone with augs [00:46:27] instead of a new species [00:46:29] I think that's required [00:46:36] They are rather a large point of contention to be fair, ati :p [00:46:43] truth [00:46:51] can we just note how topical this is with deus ex mankind divided coming out soon [00:46:51] I thought you guys were gonna rap on Resomi for ever tho [00:46:58] YEAH I KNOW RIGHT [00:47:01] BAYSTATION DIVIDED [00:47:06] NEW DLC [00:47:09] aug lives matter [00:47:12] Even better because 5:5 vote. [00:47:12] * Aticius becomes serious again [00:47:20] Ooh. Can I tie break? [00:47:25] Nope :D [00:47:28] FARK [00:47:28] (maybe) [00:47:31] b/c [00:47:34] also resomi just need to get off the tajara train [00:47:35] Tie was broken by Snap [00:47:35] FBPs should be listed [00:47:38] before they all get banned [00:47:52] small birbs go fast. [00:47:57] Cell at 1% back in 5 [00:47:59] i mean [00:48:02] *** Quits: Daaneesh (AndChat1331@sorcery-rvn.dce.114.24.IP) (Quit: Bye) [00:48:09] resomi need to loose the kawaii uguu, badly [00:48:12] Alright [00:48:14] back on track people [00:48:17] * Snapshot cracks whip [00:48:22] next topic [00:48:25] not doing their job / running around drinking coffee - 13 loko / aka everything tajara went through [00:48:27] 4. "FBPs are a newer version of IPCs" [00:48:29] (sorry) [00:48:45] This is another mostly code-oriented point. [00:48:47] . . . isn't that just topic 2 [00:48:50] Nope! [00:49:00] code [00:49:02] but also lore [00:49:04] oh [00:49:08] if more people played IPCs like posibrains [00:49:10] instead of [00:49:11] * Mordeth221 puts dunce hat on for code talk [00:49:11] I have to go in a few minutes. Snapshot, you will be forum PM'ing us about the documenting tools, correct? [00:49:12] I don't know [00:49:14] just robo humans [00:49:15] Actually this is mostly also 6. [00:49:17] yes [00:49:17] see RANGE [00:49:22] well [00:49:24] see ANDY [00:49:24] Haswell. [00:49:28] IPCs as robohumans is okay... [00:49:30] Alright. Sorry I have to go early [00:49:33] Zu was of the opinion that FBPs were a lot better than his original IPC implementation. I'm not sure what's changed between then, and them being fixed up and polished for play again. [00:49:34] I'll let you know [00:49:36] but they shouldn't be acting stupid. [00:49:49] I only become a cutebird when around people said bird likes and is comfortable with [00:49:51] all other times [00:49:53] it's not stupid [00:49:53] she is a [00:49:54] mean [00:49:54] bitch [00:49:55] they just act human [00:49:58] right now IPCs and FBPs sit very, very close in regards to code [00:49:59] * Aticius gets back on topic [00:50:16] Bye everyone. Best of luck with the discussion. [00:50:27] /I/ think, personally, that if FBPs are better than IPCs on a code basis, there's no reason for the IPC stuff to exist - BUT that it is, of course, entirely possible to make a human subtype that's just a forced FBP with specific parts and a specific brain type. [00:50:30] *** Quits: Jackalhunter (Jackalhunte@sorcery-h2jrnf.64b9.gtn0.e000.2605.IP) (Quit: Leaving) [00:50:36] ... [00:50:37] :( [00:50:54] I'm biased as fuck because FBP's can wear suits [00:50:56] I'm starting to get the opinion that people just want IPCs gone [00:51:04] * Mordeth221 waves fbp rules flag [00:51:07] Well, I'll uh, [00:51:09] suits for life [00:51:13] Clarify my point a little then. [00:51:21] I'm talking pure mechanics here. [00:51:29] If an IPC is, really, just the brain. [00:51:35] and an FBP is a flexible format for a body. [00:51:42] IPCs can fuck about in space without a hardsuit :) [00:51:49] * Mordeth221 hisses [00:51:49] Let me drop my opinion on IPCs [00:51:53] they're also immune to oxygen and toxins damage. [00:51:56] so can vox [00:51:59] no one likes vox [00:52:05] they stink >:I [00:52:07] Can we just make them use FBP code [00:52:13] remove their damage bonuses [00:52:15] and moooove on? [00:52:17] Yeahyeah, but if they're a subtype of humans, that means they can still have those same properties, surely. [00:52:27] yes fbp code is nice and >suits [00:52:27] they already use fbp code [00:52:29] I thought the pressure and heat stuff was species-level- [00:52:32] they don't have damage bonuses [00:52:33] Oh, well. [00:52:37] they handle heat different [00:52:41] and they can go in space without a hardsuit [00:52:49] pressure and heat is a species level thing [00:52:55] heat not so much anymore [00:53:02] IPCs just generate more heat than fbps [00:53:18] Then ... why the big discussion before about how they needed to be ported around to different places? [00:53:31] They're fundamentally the same thing with slightly different flavor bits. [00:53:33] because people wanted to make them a synthetic subtype [00:53:37] Oh god no. [00:53:43] That would be horrible. [00:53:52] which is exactly why we're not doing it. [00:53:54] 8D [00:53:59] who wanted that [00:54:08] Several people mentioned it [00:54:08] :v [00:54:10] I blame welp [00:54:25] So [00:54:30] if the problem is they're too similar [00:54:32] I think that mostly comes down to a misunderstanding in terms then, and if they're the same thing, that point and 6. are both pretty dodo. [00:54:35] how can we make them more distinct? [00:55:02] you [00:55:08] They're already fairly distinct, I think. The problem is in player perception, and perhaps how the two are displayed to them. [00:55:09] might shoot me down for this because fucking medical code [00:55:14] actually [00:55:15] nevermind [00:55:21] Like. [00:55:28] what i was gonna say was dumb [00:55:32] An FBP is basically just a body with a brain in it. [00:55:40] An IPC is an FBP with a posibrain in it. [00:55:55] And that posibrain comes from a specific background and needs to fit some requirements and characterisations. [00:56:05] In terms of /play/ they're supposed to be rather different. [00:56:19] I think our biggest problem is that we don't have a set defines for what exactly a posibrain should act like. [00:56:24] yes [00:56:25] again going back to the lax on synthetics policy. [00:56:35] because nothing stops a roboticist [00:56:41] taking an IPC's cube out [00:56:46] and putting it in an AI/robot [00:56:52] one has lore, one doesnt [00:57:02] IPCs have lore :o [00:57:08] yes but if you say IPC [00:57:15] you think of the humanoid IPC [00:57:16] Mordeth means the body itself, and how it's played. [00:57:18] :b [00:57:19] you don't think of the AI core [00:57:19] Mordeth, your argument is kinda universal, though [00:57:22] *** Joins: Daaneesh (kvirc@sorcery-2jnsfc.su.shawcable.net) [00:57:36] Did I miss anything? [00:57:36] the whole problem is we cannot decide how we want borgs to be played [00:57:37] like, someone without an IPC whitelist can use IPC lore as a Positronic AI [00:57:41] Not a lot. [00:57:46] How are you supposed to stop, say, a cyborg from deciding he was a Skrell before being borg'ed [00:58:05] You'd need to pretty much have different brain sprites for different species. [00:58:09] or a positronic cyborg from using IPC lore without a whitelist [00:58:15] (which would be nice anyway) [00:58:31] There's nothing wrong with IPC lore being used for synthetic fluff [00:58:45] but an android wouldn't be an IPC before becoming an adroid [00:58:47] I do have a suggestion [00:58:48] (most likely) [00:59:00] And Snapshot is going to shoot at me with his laser eyes [00:59:01] hm? [00:59:02] But [00:59:05] I'm under the impression borging is a lot like implants, having a thing in your head mandating you to do things. That however doesn't rid you of any memories prior to borging unless some wiping procedure was performed [00:59:11] Yeah, I think offhand IPCs and station synths are fairly fundamentally close, since aren't IPCs basically supposed to be from a background of a nation/organisation of freed posiminds? [00:59:22] When you think about it, the only characteristic of IPCs is that they come from the Positronic Union [00:59:29] IPCs are fundementally freed posiminds, some of which are part of the Union. [00:59:30] I have an issue with AI to pick up after this talk [00:59:32] could always make slaved synthetics use the brain of their character in the setup [00:59:34] instead of a pref [00:59:40] would make the whitelist thing easy [00:59:48] because they couldn't have a posi unless they were IPC chars [00:59:53] Oh lordy [00:59:54] just unmap the posi from robuttics [00:59:54] making [00:59:58] OH LORDY [01:00:02] now you're playing with fire [01:00:02] (that may be impossible code-wise) [01:00:03] In that regard, should we really have a IPC /species/, instead of say, free synths whose background can be the PU, which is just a nation just like SolGov or whatever colony would [01:00:14] no, playing with fire was adding a third cyborg slot to the torch [01:00:33] so... [01:00:38] And, in that particular perspective, would we really need a IPC whitelist [01:00:38] unwhitelist IPCs? [01:00:47] >_> [01:00:52] hey i said that earlier [01:00:53] ;-; [01:00:53] My opinion on that is no.. [01:00:54] Please not the laser eyes. [01:00:59] ok look [01:01:05] do you all remember why IPC's got whitelisted [01:01:09] I think the main problem with unlisting posi-fbps in general is basically ANDY. [01:01:16] mechanics weren't in yet. And people were smoking/drinking as IPC's [01:01:23] thats literally the full extent of their whitelist [01:01:25] IPCs got whitelisted because everyone played as them and kept doing stupid shit [01:01:36] and now mechanics are in barring them from stupid shit [01:01:42] Also because Zuhayr threatened to remove them [01:01:49] Then we crack the whip, and actually punish the silly IPC players when they do shit [01:01:58] The problem is though. [01:02:03] Paradoxon, [01:02:05] yes the silly should no longer be on a scale that admins cant handle [01:02:10] IPCs are vague because posis are vague [01:02:14] because silly is no longer easily accessible [01:02:20] IPCs have a rich enough lore to warrant a knowledge check though [01:02:30] egh. . . really? [01:02:37] hey we all got together and made a union [01:02:39] ipc lore [01:02:43] That when you punish a player for playing a character that doesn't fit a standard that isn't a hurdle to know about. [01:02:46] Tbh Haswell [01:02:50] You'll be punishing a lot more players. [01:03:00] Last time I checked, SolGov and humanity also had a fucking long IC history [01:03:21] And we don't ask our players to check with them that they know it before, y'know, actually letting them play [01:03:37] Issue with IPCs isn't their, hm, stable/history-lore, it's their behavior-lore [01:03:40] spookerton, when you play on the server, the MOTD says by playing here you agree to the rules [01:03:45] The problem with IPCs is they're intentionally made to be somewhat lax [01:03:51] That's because humans are basic bitches, and if they couldn't play humans when they first joined they would just leave tbh. [01:03:52] when you pick your species [01:03:56] And that's been one of the reasons a lot of people say they like IPCs. [01:03:59] you get the blurb on that species [01:04:06] it allows them to create unique characters. [01:04:15] we can just add a catch-all that says by playing the species you agree to its lore or something [01:04:21] snapshot [01:04:22] in its blurb on species select [01:04:28] the biggest answer for unwhitelisting IPCs [01:04:30] would be from you [01:04:34] you're maintainer and headmin :P [01:04:37] make the call :P [01:04:42] I know, and I really don't want to [01:04:43] and we can ban idiots or ANDY [01:04:57] who played andy anyway [01:05:00] You can mordeth, but have you ever read a 'binding' SLA in a video game instead of just clicking through it? [01:05:00] azlier? [01:05:00] :p [01:05:17] yes spook but people do that as humans for our server [01:05:17] Can't remember the exact name, Syntonia or something. [01:05:22] and get banned for breaking sane/mature [01:05:50] ANYWAY. I think the one thing we can all agree on throughout that debate is that, we need to decide to draw some lines on positronic behavior [01:06:06] I'd argue KAWAII UGUU o3o characters aren't sane or mature. [01:06:12] (and cyborg and basic robit behavior by extension) [01:06:16] we [01:06:17] Yes, Spook. [01:06:20] try to stop that snap [01:06:21] we try [01:06:31] get rid of floor length braids [01:06:33] its like stopping an ocean with a twig but we try ;-; [01:06:33] problem solved [01:06:43] (Although CYBORGS AREN'T POSITRONICS AND THEY'RE BASICALLY LAWED FBPs BUT WHATEV) [01:06:43] solid snapshot [01:06:47] let's do it [01:07:15] Paradoxon Androids are positronic robots [01:07:20] we weren't talking about cyborgs [01:07:21] you goof [01:07:26] Yeah the big problem with fbps is they fill the niche that IPCs were already filling [01:07:27] :( [01:07:27] "spookerton [01:07:27] (and cyborg and basic robit behavior by extension) " [01:07:29] Yes para, but since they can occupy the same bodies they need behavior rules to diff them from other things. [01:07:40] Learn to read, Mordeth221 e.e [01:07:43] since they were designed to, you know, replace IPCs. [01:07:50] never, illeterate and proud [01:08:10] so [01:08:14] ipc's [01:08:18] they're cool [01:08:19] just a human fbp with a positronic [01:08:22] y/n [01:08:23] :| [01:08:25] n [01:08:32] they have lore [01:08:36] they can go in space without a suit [01:08:37] what's the justification for humans to get brained and shoved into a robot chassis anyway? [01:08:37] :D [01:08:38] public lorrrre [01:08:41] Snapshot, can I just... [01:08:43] and special sprites :D [01:08:49] You're going to hit me again, but [01:09:04] you're going to ask me to unwhitelist IPCs again [01:09:08] or just remove them [01:09:12] Don't you think IPC lore ought to be adapted to give us some room for synth-improvements as a whole [01:09:13] into an honest to god lawed chasis Haswell? [01:09:19] usually prisoners [01:09:28] or near-death people [01:09:35] we don't even know what improvements we want to make [01:09:36] I always liked Ikky's thing for NOSE. [01:09:36] no, chassis as in FBPs. Proper borg bodies are clear enough [01:09:41] oh [01:09:46] its considered cheaper than cloning [01:09:55] fluff wise [01:10:00] I mean, your argumentation becomes contradictory at some point, "IPCs have lore, they need whitelist", "IPCs are written as lax to allow people to do whatever they want" [01:10:10] also transhumanism [01:10:33] He was first someone paying off the debts of being put in a robit body because of a terminal disease, and then someone working for profit. But he was a lawed synth because when you're a synth and you go to work and get access to a whole station's systems, being lawed for the shift is just part of the job. [01:11:03] I'd honestly want to see FBPs justify why they got brained and put into a robot chassis, seeing "killing myself to get borged" is very much NOT sane and believable as it is [01:11:20] haswelel [01:11:24] Haswell to be honest if you see that legitimately somewhere, bop them. [01:11:37] you'll get a 300 page terminal illness backstory [01:11:38] Lethal problems, like cancer, some particularily awful car accident [01:11:48] If they can justify their background, have them play off it and differentiate FBP from IPC with roleplay. [01:11:57] I'm all good with someone having a well-explained transhumanist backstory for why they discarded their old body, but "why not lel" isn't good. [01:12:23] this is where we stop discussing IC [01:12:30] and accidently drift into OOC unknowingly [01:12:42] Florp. [01:13:02] So it seems like really most of our fbp problems are code problems [01:13:16] with the exception of posilore [01:13:17] I mean, the "Why FBP" problem has always existed, except we gave it less fucks before FBPs [01:13:31] Why do some people have prosthetics, how do the station synths/borgs came to be what they are [01:13:33] ^ this [01:13:33] and we open a bag of sociological issues and people projecting onto characters [01:13:51] yeah like mord who insists his fbp needs to be able to use hardsuits [01:13:51] :V [01:13:55] *IPc [01:13:56] hiss [01:14:12] self-projection, we all do it, don't feel bad :P [01:14:15] I mean, either synths /all/ need a whitelist, or they don't. [01:14:18] and me who insists that IPCs should be whitelisted to keep the species sane and limit the number of them on station. [01:14:24] actually [01:14:26] snapshot [01:14:29] work around [01:14:38] let IPC's put coolers into their suit-slot without a suit [01:14:45] :v [01:14:46] nah mate [01:14:47] it's called [01:14:49] fuck you [01:14:51] a balance [01:14:51] if you say balance [01:14:53] fuck youuuuuuuuuuuuu [01:15:03] you could also possibly just make [01:15:12] posibrained station robits [01:15:16] heat up in space too. [01:15:18] Snapshot, how bout letting the cooler use both the back slot and the suit slot? [01:15:21] no spook pls [01:15:23] stop nerfing things [01:15:26] And say "the posibrain is hot as fuck" specifically. [01:15:26] it can Haswell [01:15:34] well then, I don't see a problem with it [01:15:41] but IPCs for being able to go in space without the suit have a tradeoff of not being able to wear a backpack. [01:15:50] IPC'S CANT USE THE SUIT SLOT BECAUSE THEY CANT WEAR SUITS [01:15:50] They have to carry it instead. :D [01:15:51] HNNNNNNNNNNG [01:15:57] mord [01:15:59] HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG [01:16:00] spacesuits [01:16:05] IPCs [01:16:07] You might as well axe cyborgs as they are now completely, and turn them into IPCs / FBPs with law synch to AI enabled. [01:16:10] cant wear them [01:16:11] wow [01:16:14] haswell [01:16:16] ^ Atlantis [01:16:18] Atlantis, I agree completely. [01:16:25] ^ What I've been trying to say since the beginning [01:16:32] IPCs can wear spacesuits/softsuits just fine, don't they? [01:16:37] no they [01:16:38] fucking cant [01:16:41] IPCs can't wear any space suit [01:16:43] which was my point from minute #1 [01:16:48] Make them all the same, with only visual differences, add support for laws, and AI sync. [01:16:55] THANK YOU ATLANTIS ;~; [01:16:55] When did that change? [01:16:55] do you know what happens if they put them on, Mord [01:17:04] they overheat [01:17:04] they overheat [01:17:05] and die [01:17:08] so what is the [01:17:09] cooler [01:17:10] for [01:17:13] hnngnhngh [01:17:16] keeping them from overheating and dying [01:17:19] We /need/ to put all synths under a same umbrella, else we're going to keep hitting walls like that [01:17:21] without needing a suit [01:17:28] so why cant they wear a suit and cool inside the suit [01:17:42] >:I [01:17:51] atlantis, lots of refactoring required [01:17:54] Atlantis, we could just give them a special set of FBP sprites, just like IPCs. It would actually be pretty frigging spooky to have a station synth start messing with the doors and stuff around you but also just be someone you can't /easily/ visually ID. [01:18:08] just add machine species to the suit allowances [01:18:09] because I'm trying to make fair exchanges in terms of what the species can and cannot do Mordeth [01:18:09] As for suits, i don't see a reason to force them to wear in space. They're machines, so they don't need atmosphere. It should be compensated in some other way. One would say even heat management without air would be somehow solved for them. Just make the "Does not need suit and internals for EVA" ability their advantage. Super-vulnerability to EMPs and damage in general and stuff is enough [01:18:09] to balance that off. [01:18:18] but snapshot [01:18:21] if every species wore hardsuits and acted the same way there'd be nothing unique about the species [01:18:24] theres no upside to wearing a cooler [01:18:27] if they start wearing hardsuits and a suit cooler [01:18:31] then they might as well just be FBPs [01:18:34] its litearlly only a downside [01:18:35] and I might as well just get rid of IPCs [01:18:40] because that seems to be the consensus so far [01:18:42] which was brought up, snapshot [01:18:43] :v [01:18:51] that people just want unwhitelisted fbps with posibrains [01:18:55] Well I mean again, IPCs are the background and the brain, not really the body. At least mechanically. :p [01:19:06] Snap, the truth is, IPCs, on a purely mechanical standpoint, are nothing but FBPs with a posi in it, and an origin linked to the P.U [01:19:10] I would suggest, unwhitelisted for lawed use, whitelisted for unlawed use. [01:19:10] Barring the heat thing, anyway. [01:19:20] No [01:19:23] No lawed IPCs [01:19:26] IPCs are IPCs because of their lore, not of their body [01:19:29] the entire point of cyborgs is they don't have hands [01:19:38] a lawed IPC is just an android >.> [01:19:43] ^ [01:19:46] and can interact with machines, snap [01:19:47] no, no it's not [01:19:56] androids can interact with machines anywhere [01:19:58] they have all access [01:20:00] they don't have hands [01:20:00] Which is a super-old concept, that has required bunch of relatively hacky and still somewhat shoddy workarounds for them to be able to do things. [01:20:01] I have a frigging idea about the "don't have hands" thing, though [01:20:17] Now that we have all that super modularity for bodies and shit [01:20:20] ie. Grippers. Often new things get added, but people forget to update them, resulting in cyborgs being unable to use the new stuff. [01:20:24] Can't we have different types of synthetics arms [01:20:37] On the topic of grippers. [01:20:38] Who actually acts as the "synth modules" we currently know [01:20:38] Well then, alternate solution: add ability to remove all-access from borgs [01:20:40] AND [01:20:49] Add a last module we could call "manipulator" or some shit [01:20:58] I'm going to be straight up honest now [01:21:02] I really don't want to remove IPCs [01:21:06] That would act as, y'know, the equivalent of IPC/FBP hands [01:21:06] I really don't want to unwhitelist them [01:21:17] because they've been something I've worked on and puts lots of effort into [01:21:33] I don't see a need to, tbh. [01:21:34] If you guys really, really want them that way, then I guess I can't be one to stop you, but I'd be really disappointed. [01:21:42] snap [01:21:46] are you familiar with Hound [01:21:57] you have no idea [01:22:00] I want to keep IPCs, I also want to see FBPs /roleplay/ differently from IPCs. That's all I want. [01:22:05] how much I want to make Hound an IPC since day one [01:22:08] They are, at the end of the day, a species background. They're just one that consists of a brain instead of a body. I don't see why you'd NEED to unlist them. [01:22:19] you just said you want them unlisted [01:22:20] I quote [01:22:28] "Either whitelist all synthetics or none of them" [01:22:39] -I- didn't say that. :v [01:22:42] That was me, Snap [01:22:44] ok we're [01:22:49] having a quad way conversation [01:22:51] And, that doesn't mean I want them unwhitelisted, actually [01:22:54] whos talking to who [01:23:01] I'd be totally fine with all synths being whitelisted too. [01:23:06] Whitelisting synthetics may actually work too [01:23:08] we're not whitelisting synths [01:23:28] Okay, another idea [01:23:49] My only real current problem with IPC's [01:23:52] If you whitelist synths, you're crippling a pretty major portion of the intent of the game, locking job roles behind a whitelist. [01:24:12] I'm going to talk in terms of perspective from the character creation thing, because I'm not really able to speak from any other point [01:24:16] You can always whitelist unlawed synthetics. [01:24:30] Lawed synthetics could be freely available instead of cyborgs. [01:24:33] so whitelist IPCs? [01:24:35] which is [01:24:37] exactly what we have [01:24:41] ok ok ok [01:24:42] But, wouldn't it be possible to simply whitelist all posi-based synths, and keep cyborg-synths unwhitelisted [01:24:46] * Mordeth221 takes center stage [01:24:52] * Mordeth221 pushes everyone down and steals the talking stick [01:25:00] Because we can agree that a cyborg keeps their lore from their original species, while a posi would have a different origin [01:25:14] I'm not bright enough to run a quad way conversation [01:25:18] AND it keeps allowing player to play as the "station synths", only they have to be a cyborg, or a robot [01:25:23] I need a talk with snap [01:25:28] YOU'RE STILL GOING? [01:25:31] SHEESH [01:25:34] :3 [01:25:36] *** Quits: Raptor1628 (Raptor1628@sorcery-i2iat6.md.comcast.net) (Quit: SorceryNet Kiwi WebChat) [01:25:40] yes atic [01:25:43] *** Joins: Raptor1628 (Raptor1628@sorcery-i2iat6.md.comcast.net) [01:25:44] Ok snap, are you alive. [01:25:46] right imma be [01:25:49] just a bit afk [01:25:52] ping me if i'm needed [01:25:58] Oh, yeah, thanks for bringing us back on topic, Aticius: So, guys, I think we can all agree that Resomii suck and need to be removed from the game, right ? :o [01:26:13] I'm going to choke you to death with this talking stick [01:26:15] * spookerton screams. [01:26:33] Sorry, I had to go to the bathroom. [01:26:53] * Mordeth221 wiggles talking stick [01:26:55] ok snap [01:27:07] You need to hear what I have to say [01:27:13] Not as the point of view from someone that understands [01:27:15] code at all [01:27:17] or how numbers work [01:27:20] but as someone that actually [01:27:23] plays the role daily. [01:27:33] * Paradoxon raises his hand for having the talking stick after Mordeth. [01:27:39] ok now [01:27:41] Hound [01:27:44] my little snoflek [01:27:53] I love him, I want him to be an IPC because a machine with hands. [01:28:05] But [01:28:18] I cannot function as an engineer. Because My backpack is removed for cooling [01:28:28] I cannot function as security, because my backpack is removed for cooling [01:28:29] Is this about the suit thing? [01:28:33] I cannot function in [01:28:35] so many roles [01:28:39] Because we cant [01:28:40] as players [01:28:41] do things [01:28:43] Mord, why do you need to go EVA? [01:28:50] we're far more unrobust than you think snap [01:28:57] If I get one hit in the hand [01:29:04] It sparks and we drop things until a roboticist does surgery [01:29:10] same goes for legs, we fall until surgery [01:29:17] We're not enjoyable to play [01:29:32] FBP's are enjoyable because they're just about equal to humans in levels of robust [01:29:38] with some overheating elements [01:29:47] also haswell it's a space station for petes sake [01:29:54] lots of main jobs are EVA [01:30:02] That's just the repair code for mechanical organs being broken, as in you can't slap cables onto your robo arm anymore [01:30:13] can the suit cooler be placed on the belt? [01:30:17] no [01:30:29] would that be a reasonable compromise to not wearing a suit, but still having storage? [01:30:39] Thats what I was saying previously [01:30:42] Just how often do people on the station go EVA? Even engineers usually spend the entire round without needing internals/EVA. [01:30:44] (also carry a backpack in your hand you lazy fuck) [01:31:00] Haswell: Try fixing a breach as engineer without EVA gear.. [01:31:01] even a slow round has usually at least one decompression or atmos hazard [01:31:09] that requires at least internals [01:31:11] probably a suit [01:31:14] I fully agree with what Mordeth said. [01:31:22] wheras an IPC can respond with just a cooling unit [01:31:28] that fits in their backpack and they can lug around [01:31:28] and [01:31:30] 0 materials [01:31:43] put it in your backpack and carry your backpack. [01:31:45] * Mordeth221 groans [01:31:46] snap thats not how [01:31:48] breaches work [01:31:49] I don't see what's wrong about carrying a backpack? [01:31:54] I thought IPC/FBP overheat based on air temperature? As long as there's /some/ are available they don't overheat, right? [01:32:00] air* [01:32:00] its boom, breach, aaaagh! ZAS! deaths! [01:32:04] over a certain threshold Haswell [01:32:15] only the engineer ready for it, its standing there like one-punch man with his magboots on [01:32:20] Keep a suit cooler in your backpack. [01:32:28] open your backpack, take suit cooler off [01:32:33] take backpack off, put suit cooler on [01:32:37] boom [01:32:45] The thing is, hauling a backpack in hand is /annoyingly limiting/ [01:32:53] See -> Vox [01:32:54] and the suit cooler takes up [01:32:54] You need your hands to fix stuff [01:32:56] most of the space [01:33:00] snap my point isn't [01:33:03] please listen to this [01:33:03] you can always drag a backpack... [01:33:05] my point is not [01:33:06] is [01:33:06] not [01:33:08] limitations [01:33:11] its what is enjoyable to play [01:33:26] IPC is not enjoyable compared to FBP [01:33:51] I shouldn't have to juggle things and rework sizes and rethink gear loadouts [01:33:59] I should be logging into my 2d spaceman game [01:34:02] to have fun with a community [01:34:04] Are skrell/taj/unathi enjoyable compared to humans, beyond playing them for their lore? [01:34:25] yes. [01:34:32] They are as enjoyable. What Mordeth says is that IPCs are /less/ enjoyable [01:35:14] Vox don't have the brain smarts to do any of the roles that require high end equipment or sizeable bag loads [01:35:34] you walk into space and hit rocks, and then die from eating your own puke [01:35:51] and thats the fun about vox [01:36:07] IPC's just feel like unfun Robot-with-hands [01:36:24] which is literally such an easy fix [01:36:37] FBP's are already there. [01:36:46] It's why people are roleplaying their IPC's on FBP code [01:37:35] If the whole problem is that you don't want IPCs/FBPs to overheat as quickly, maybe a temperature gradient can be used based on the immediate air temperature [01:37:45] * Mordeth221 sighs [01:37:46] No its [01:37:49] not about heat [01:38:38] FBP's work fine as they are [01:38:42] I can log in as an Officer [01:38:53] and keep up with everyone else in my department without going 'oh wait no-' [01:39:48] but as an IPC's just just constant little 'Oh wait I can't suit up, Oh wait someone else has the only 2 suit coolers on the station, Oh wait there was a breach right here, I can't put on my internals in my box and live' [01:40:16] its just a massive bag of disadvantages [01:40:20] and the 'advantages' [01:40:22] are not advantages [01:40:23] at all [01:40:34] Self repair? Humans can do that just fine. [01:40:48] IPC's still get damaged to the point they need actual surgery, only with tools. [01:40:58] Thats not an advantage [01:41:19] Breathing in space without a suit? Guess what, You need one of two coolers on the station [01:41:26] You either need to hog it the entire round [01:41:28] I'd say, let them wear suits if they want to, but don't require them to wear the suits. That way, it's pretty self balanced. They're fragile on their own, have worse melee damage, and not wearing a suit will only expose these weaknesses even more, as most suits offer some kind of armor [01:41:31] Meta'ing the fuck out of anything going wrong [01:41:35] stopgap measure: replace the internal box with a mini cooler that has vastly shorter battery life than proper coolers, make them actually used for emergencies [01:41:59] and [01:42:04] Im not saying any of this because I hate IPC's [01:42:10] I'm saying it because I keep trying to play them [01:42:15] and I keep dying frustratingly [01:42:21] you can make coolers [01:42:23] We're not braindead vox that expect to die for puking [01:42:55] Fixing mechanical limb repairs will likely fix the issue of IPCs cannot into self-repair [01:43:18] I'll add to this, talking stick be damned - you CAN make coolers, but cells are still fairly exclusive unless you want a totally shit random spawn one. [01:43:37] Or reverting it back to "screwdriver your arm open, slap on cables/steel sheets" [01:44:05] spook, there are a ton of high-capacity cells on the station [01:44:07] (Also ping me when you don't want the talking stick anymore Mordeth221 :o) [01:44:12] I still find it silly they overheat in space. I mean, even today's computers are designed to prevent actual overheating damage. Try jamming a fork into your computer's fan. The CPU will eventually throttle itself to prevent damage, or it will shut down completely. One'd expect modern 2560's robotic chassis to have such preventive measures too, for example, slowing down the movement speed [01:44:12] to prevent heat generation. [01:44:14] * Mordeth221 puts talking stick on floor [01:44:16] Almost all of them are in engineering. :o [01:44:25] * Paradoxon grabs the talking stick with ferocity. [01:44:28] Actually, most of them are in science [01:44:35] Science is a lie. [01:44:58] Atlantis: Gameplay over realism [01:45:07] why do cyberlimbs produce a shitton of heat [01:45:11] —\_(?)_/— [01:45:12] science/engineering have the stocks. If vox can live with begging for N2 refills, IPCs can live with asking engineering/science for a new cell [01:45:14] Yet in this case even the gameplay aspect is kind of meh [01:45:23] Robotic limbs have no advantages and bunch of disadvantages [01:45:28] It's a replacement system for a lot of damage types. [01:45:33] massive EMP vulnerability, worse damage, now the heat thing, .. [01:45:36] Robotic limbs have higher helath [01:45:45] they take 0.85 damage in both burn and brute [01:45:46] did we not hear [01:45:50] anything I just fucking said [01:45:58] That little buff to their libms [01:46:05] doesn't mean jack fucking shit in a normal fight [01:46:05] Which doesn't matter when first damage you get hit by disables the limb due to "Your [X] shudders as you drop the [Y]" stuff [01:46:14] a gunshot still does far more to your limb [01:46:20] than a suit to protect your limb will [01:46:21] that's because someone's scaled weapons ridiculously towards the OP end [01:46:26] all weapons are brutal on a single hit now [01:46:54] So you agree then stop using "But they have higher health" as a counterpoint [01:46:57] It's not weapons. It's the robotic limbs. They are way too fragile. They may have bigger /maximal/ health, but they real health is nearly zero. [01:47:00] Because it doesn't matter. [01:47:11] sec now have ballistic and abalative suits, they cover your whole body, right? [01:47:21] As in, even tiny damage to them will give you the same effect a broken bone would [01:48:07] broken bones happen at 25 damage, right? [01:48:20] so the "spark and malfunction" threshold just need to be tweaked, yes? [01:48:33] Take out the "just" out of that sentence. [01:48:54] Tweaking the threshold won't be a magical turn from "nearly useless" to "comparable, but different" [01:49:14] *** Joins: Jackalhunter (Jackalhunte@sorcery-h2jrnf.64b9.gtn0.e000.2605.IP) [01:49:32] * Paradoxon clears his throat. [01:49:50] So, hm, most things were said about that particular topic, hm ? [01:50:40] Right. [01:50:45] * Paradoxon waves talking stick. [01:50:45] Something I'd like to mention before we continue. [01:50:50] Oh, go ahead, Spook. [01:50:50] Sorry to butt in. [01:51:04] Is that we're at what, 3h50m on this meeting. [01:51:06] Which is fine, but [01:51:18] FBP/IPC chatter has probably been like [01:51:24] 2h30 of it. [01:51:26] At least half [01:51:28] Ya [01:51:36] Truth to be told, we've finished the last "predicted" topic for the meeting ages ago [01:51:41] And Ati did want to do something resomi-ish. [01:51:43] I think? [01:51:46] Last point was supposed to be the Resomii [01:52:10] I won't be long anyway, it's more of a quick thing. [01:52:17] Roger. [01:52:18] Relatively big, but quick. [01:52:22] Anyhoo [01:52:49] So, yeah, Snapshot, I just wanted to go back on the difficulties of merging FBPs and IPCs, notably on the subject that the former doesn't have lore, while the latter does [01:52:57] Near meeting end, can we do a 'sum up' of what the decision were about what and who and all that [01:53:18] The big issue being, nobody wants to whitelist FBPs, and most don't want IPCs to be unwhitelisted [01:53:25] But I think we looked at it wrong [01:53:51] And we should see past "IPCs", and try to look at positronics as a whole [01:54:19] I don't think most staff want to whitelist positronics [01:54:25] To make it brief : I think you should become "species maintainer" for Positronic brains, IPCs being a part obviously [01:54:36] Well, I'm just popping my idea out as of now [01:55:02] But fundamentally, we need lore on positronicx [01:55:15] Making posi whitelisted wouldn't stop players from playing station-based cyborgs [01:55:40] except we're trying to get rid of station-based cyborgs in favor of posi and robot [01:55:41] And we could at last have a point of separation between FBPs and IPCs, [01:56:45] Well, then we're back from the beginning, I suppose [01:56:49] I'll just finish saying that: [01:57:10] I feel there are a lot of contradictory goals expressed, not in their essence, but in what they imply and require [01:58:09] Either we try to unify them and ruffle some feathers, or we try to keep every-single-body happy, but this definitely can't happen [01:58:26] * Paradoxon puts the talking stick on the floor. [01:59:35] I think fundamentally IPCs are fine in terms of how they're being roleplayed with the exception of those who are not playing them in sane and mature ways. [01:59:55] Given the fact this discussion is taking almost three hours now, i'd suggest moving it to the public staff forum or other apropriate place. Doesn't seem that we would be getting closer to a consensus here and now. [02:00:09] I think that'll be a good idea as well [02:00:41] * Daaneesh nods. [02:01:00] I'm submitting a pull request for the IPC hardsuits and the fbp species name fixes.l [02:01:28] was there anything else major? [02:01:33] I think we should all wait a bit, see if the dynamic changes once we start cracking down on fbps acting like they're synths and not following their species platform before we go making any more decisions. [02:01:56] But yes, does anyone else have any other topics? [02:02:08] oh uh [02:02:14] Micromanaging AI's. [02:02:23] Superbee's been [02:02:28] We've talked about big brother AIs before, didn't we? [02:02:36] really underlining the issue [02:02:47] if this is a one player problem, deal with the player AIs shouldn't give orders [02:02:50] we had a whole thread about it [02:03:08] we need to remove the 'This AI is your master' thing still though [02:03:10] And it was a topic in our last meeting. [02:03:18] apparently people aren't [02:03:20] getting the message [02:03:39] What's the problem with AI master of a borg? [02:04:04] "Hey you pick this module even though you dont know much about that modules department" [02:04:11] "Ok go do that shit" [02:04:14] Cyborgs being lawed to AIs is a good thing. AI ordering crew around (though, not to be mistaken with giving recommendations) is not a good thing [02:04:16] "Why are you fucking up" [02:04:53] Ya, I don't like that AI mentality [02:04:54] "This unit does not have the required training log for that department" [02:05:05] *** Quits: Apple_Master (Jim@fallemmc.com) (Ping timeout: 121 seconds) [02:05:15] AI: "Greetings new unit. Engage security module" Borg: "Unit wishes to warn you that security module is not within primary module set. Unit's performance may be substandard. Enable anyway?" AI: "Yes/No/whatever/" [02:05:36] Yeah I don't see why the borg can't just say they can't really do it. [02:05:36] Yeah, no issue with AIs commanding its borgs [02:05:40] that's how the thing works [02:05:44] Hell, my android automatically picks engineering module on joining and doesn't ask anyone. [02:06:09] Strictly speaking, a linked borg is only linked to the AI's laws, not the AI's will. [02:06:22] ehhhh [02:06:22] "Obey your master AI." [02:06:30] it's in the thing when you spawn as a borg [02:06:33] Being reset to another module is a different thing, you should respect crew/ai's choices, but you can always stick with the "I don't know how to use that module" stuff [02:06:35] yeah, we've really enforced "listen to the AI" [02:06:35] Wait, there's that now? [02:06:41] really prevents cheesing of laws/your AI's orders [02:07:17] (we're uh, getting a lot of good topics covered, but we're past the 3h mark now) [02:07:20] Huh... note to self: give my borgs freedom of automation when I play AI. [02:07:26] ... Wait, 4h. [02:07:27] (actually, 4 hour mark) [02:07:48] Yep [02:07:51] we're at 4 hours [02:07:51] speaking of remaining topics [02:08:00] Anyway, this topic has already been discussed a thousand times. The outcome has always been "Crack down on bad AIs" [02:08:01] who can I bribe to make ninja invisibility show what's held in hand? [02:08:06] I had a, uh, idea I suppose as well [02:08:11] Harpy was doing it but they're sort of gone [02:08:21] Mmm [02:08:25] opacity alphas [02:08:27] err [02:08:29] overlay alphas [02:08:30] and it's a bit of basic ninja balance that I want to see done before the lynch mobs nerf it to hell [02:08:31] It might be nice to table further robotics stuff for a latter chat. I think this was really productive in terms of working out some of the issues people've been stewing about, but it's been the vast majority of the conversation today, and we only get one of these a month, officially. [02:08:39] that's some snowflakeness now. [02:08:50] the thing is, invisibility used to show objects in hand [02:08:57] just look at the invisibility projector item [02:09:00] or..what's it called [02:09:28] The change to alphas caused that. Theoretically you could just have it overlay-- wait no. [02:09:32] it changes the master alpha [02:09:44] mehh [02:09:46] so you'd have to individually make the overlays have whatever alpha [02:09:50] it's really snowflakey [02:09:52] :( [02:10:01] Now we can get to the real topic of the meeting: Should we chain Raptor in the dev basement until he's done working on the Torch or no [02:10:08] Alright, I'll try to come up with a middle of the road ninja balance proposal that won't make them impossible [02:10:09] para [02:10:12] if you want it to go faster [02:10:17] Help [02:10:18] the real topic is whether we remove Resomi let's be honest [02:10:20] someone fix the merge conflicts on my PR, before I delete my entire branch :P [02:10:21] I need to clap faster ? [02:10:27] Can we go one step further and expand invisibility to cover body parts (and held items)? [02:10:27] hold a vote snap [02:10:37] Fuck it we're voting now [02:10:47] !votemake remove cutebird scum | yes | no [02:10:47] Snapshot: Vote created; vote ID 'OUE7G' [02:10:53] !vote yes [02:10:53] Monsieur: Invalid vote id! [02:10:57] !vote OUE7G yes [02:10:57] Snapshot: Vote cast. [02:11:03] !vote OUE7G yes [02:11:03] Monsieur: Vote cast. [02:11:05] !vote OUE7G yes [02:11:05] Haswell: Vote cast. [02:11:07] Aticius, this one is for you :o [02:11:10] !vote OUE7G yes [02:11:10] Atlantis: Vote cast. [02:11:14] !vote OUE7G yes [02:11:14] Chronograph: Vote cast. [02:11:15] !vote OUE7G No [02:11:16] Mrs. Mij: Invalid option; valid options: yes; no [02:11:23] !vote OUE7G no [02:11:23] Mrs. Mij: Vote cast. [02:11:32] !vote yes [02:11:32] Aticius: Invalid vote id! [02:11:35] way to devils advocate. [02:11:35] oh [02:11:43] !vote OUE7G no [02:11:43] ??????: Vote cast. [02:11:45] wait is this serious [02:11:47] No [02:11:48] ok [02:11:53] !vote oue7g yes [02:11:53] Aticius: Invalid vote id! [02:11:55] We're joking mate [02:11:56] fuck you nt [02:11:56] yes [02:12:02] (it is serious) [02:12:04] but it's not [02:12:06] or is it? [02:12:11] :O [02:12:12] Totally (not) serious :o [02:12:14] —\_(?)_/— [02:12:17] I'm voting no because let's be honest here, where else will my vox get snacks? [02:12:18] Resomi cereal [02:12:30] 1 minute left lads [02:12:33] come on [02:12:36] put your votes in the hat [02:12:52] Can I log in with another name and add more yes votes in the hat [02:12:53] boxes of candied resomi cereal, yes [02:12:59] !voteresults OUE7G [02:13:03] !vote OUE76 yes [02:13:03] Jackalhunter: Invalid vote id! [02:13:05] Oh I fucked that up [02:13:09] !help [02:13:18] !vote OUE76 Yes [02:13:19] Raptor1628: Invalid vote id! [02:13:22] !vote OUE7G Yes [02:13:22] Raptor1628: Invalid option; valid options: yes; no [02:13:26] !vote OUE7G yes [02:13:26] Raptor1628: Vote cast. [02:13:28] fucking hell [02:13:30] !voteresult OUE7G [02:13:30] Vote OUE7G: remove cutebird scum [02:13:30] yes: 6 [02:13:30] no: 2 [02:13:34] Damn [02:13:35] ;_; [02:13:36] shhhhhhhhredded [02:13:38] looks like cutebird scum are out [02:13:46] * Snapshot tosses Resomi in the dead species list [02:13:48] spookerton: You and me bby, against the world [02:13:58] did ati even vote ;( [02:13:58] the Cutebirds get the cutetrashcompactor [02:14:00] We dine tonight on roasted pheasant [02:14:05] Alright [02:14:07] I think we're good [02:14:07] no i didnt [02:14:12] because fucking synths [02:14:13] I had a thing ;_; [02:14:18] Let's end the meeting here. [02:14:20] I wanted to say [02:14:23] :-( [02:14:26] oh what? [02:14:36] SHUSH DAANEESH IT'S OVER [02:14:52] SPEAK OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE (Until the next month) [02:14:59] rip in squawks. [02:15:07] it's daaneesh's erp hour now [02:15:07] I think it might be a good idea to like have a thing where new admins can 'test buttons' and see how they work. [02:15:15] People can tell me this stuff [02:15:16] private server [02:15:18] * Snapshot nods. [02:15:19] Test server :> [02:15:20] But I won't remember [02:15:33] Asan and I tried that, but it didn't work [02:15:39] * Snapshot shrugs [02:15:39] local server [02:15:41] !address test [02:15:41] Haswell: (test) byond://erebus.gn32.uk:5000 [02:15:43] probably did something wrong [02:15:45] !address main [02:15:45] Haswell: byond://baystation12.net:8000 [02:15:45] He couldn't get the server working or w/e [02:15:48] !address dev [02:15:48] Haswell: (dev) byond://baystation12.net:8100 [02:15:49] solution to all problems. I use it all the time when devving stuff..